I'd say it's entirely relevant. The world does not revolve around Texas. If CTD had only raised prices for Texas customers then I'd call shenanigans. If all ammunition vendors conspired to raise their prices I would call shenanigans. CTD can certainly argue, and probably with success, that they were not raising their prices due to the COVID shutdowns, they were raising their prices due to demand that has far outpaced the supply chain and the resulting increase they perceived in commodity value. If TX wants to charge CTD with a criminal offense, they had best be prepared to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt which is an extremely high bar to clear in this case. Here in SC we aren't "shut down" but I would have to pay the same amount for CTD ammo as a buyer in Houston. However I choose not to and source my ammo elsewhere at a price that I am willing to pay. The cat from Houston is free to do the same. The .gov has no business interfering. Let the market decide how much is too much.
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Texas AG goes after ‘Cheaper than Dirt’ for price gouging.
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
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HARRYM
NES Member
You are absolutely correct of course but it is shitty to have businesses that should be standing with 2A soldiers and believers instead of effing them over.
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Slimey vendor tactics:
1. Cancelling accepted orders when the value of merchandise contracted for sale at a particular price goes up. I believe Bushmaster did this with all magazine orders in the days just before the 94 ban.
2. Using a UPS or Fedex "package recall" to recover shipped merchandise in transit and cancel orders when the value goes up.
Price gouging laws are not about making product available, or even protecting people from prices. It is to spare the outrage of someone ELSE making a profit that others resent only because they are not in a position to so as well.
1. Cancelling accepted orders when the value of merchandise contracted for sale at a particular price goes up. I believe Bushmaster did this with all magazine orders in the days just before the 94 ban.
2. Using a UPS or Fedex "package recall" to recover shipped merchandise in transit and cancel orders when the value goes up.
Price gouging laws are not about making product available, or even protecting people from prices. It is to spare the outrage of someone ELSE making a profit that others resent only because they are not in a position to so as well.
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CTD is based in Fort Worth, Texas.
Don't matter, they broke the law in their own state and its provable because they updated their pricing outside their normal schedule after the emergency order.
xtry51
NES Member
I fully agree CTD is a garbage business. I'm just ok with having garbage businesses im free to ignore over gov mandates.
HARRYM
NES Member
Yup, it sucks as it's not the first time they have been called out for sticking up the wazoos of gun owners.
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Is it price gouging or market pricing when a town in RI adds an ultra vires $300 surcharge on top of the statutory $40 carry permit fee?
HARRYM
NES Member
Well, it's certainly arbitrary and capricious for sure and likely unconstitutional as well. They may get away with it if ALL permits, building, plumbing, whatever, have the added surcharge.
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I refer to them as “Cheaper Than Sh*t”
xtry51
NES Member
I woukd argue as finer point that anything the gov requires should NOT have a fee. The overhead cost should be paid for in the budget period and shared by all taxpayers. If everyone doesn't want to pay for it, then it shouldn't exist.
Obviously there should be no permits at all, but its doubly egregious to have a permit and require a payment from the individual exercising a right. Its the very definition. Of a poll tax.
The classifieds here have stripped lowers for $1500.Pretty sure the classifieds here have that photo of an AR for 1100 over msrp, and a bunch more to boot! They’re just following the MA model for pricing.
and yet CTD is still in business after all the price gouging.
Whats the proper mark up on ammo ?
if i sell ammo I paid .20¢ for $1.00 am I gouging?
after all i cant replace it
Are manufactures and distributors still at 2018 prices?
Im in the camp, dont like the prices dont pay.
Unfortunately someone will pay because they want or need.
It sucks for sure, if copper keeps going up in price lead may follow tie that in with election/virus we could easily see $2 round for common fodder
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The current increase is primarily market prices, not copper.
Interesting question - is the markup relative to acquisition or replacement cost? To answer that one only need to answer the question "will you, the buyer, pay a higher price at a vendor that is selling ammo bought at a higher price during a crisis if that exceeds the price available from other sellers?".
Dennis in MA
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Given that BPS had 9mm practice ammo for $17/box, I'd say 90% of the increase is market forces, not raw material costs. I'm betting manf costs are up - even some of it being COVfefe related - but the supply chain is taking a pound of flesh along the way. The little guy that got 2 cases of 9mm in his shop? He's probably not making any more than he was before - possibly LESS on the ammo.
There is enough of a demand that you can't complain if you are part of the supply chain.
"That's $750 for a case of 9mm, wholesale."
"Seven-fifty! That can't be."
"Yeah. Federal is putting the screws to us."
"No they aren't. Bass Pro is selling ammo at $340 a case. Same ammo."
"Well, then go buy it there!"
"I can't. They have an 8-box limit. I need 2 cases!"
"Look, do you want the ammo or not? That's the price!"
When there is no surplus of supply, you take whatever the supplier charges you. Period. And you're happy with your 2 cases every 3 weeks. It's not the little guy in most cases. (Although some shrewd people raised prices on CURRENT inventory as the demand went up. Still just supply/demand.)
There is enough of a demand that you can't complain if you are part of the supply chain.
"That's $750 for a case of 9mm, wholesale."
"Seven-fifty! That can't be."
"Yeah. Federal is putting the screws to us."
"No they aren't. Bass Pro is selling ammo at $340 a case. Same ammo."
"Well, then go buy it there!"
"I can't. They have an 8-box limit. I need 2 cases!"
"Look, do you want the ammo or not? That's the price!"
When there is no surplus of supply, you take whatever the supplier charges you. Period. And you're happy with your 2 cases every 3 weeks. It's not the little guy in most cases. (Although some shrewd people raised prices on CURRENT inventory as the demand went up. Still just supply/demand.)
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If the prices come down after the shortage, those shrewd people will not be able to sell ammo based on their higher acquisition cost. Replacement cost pricing makes perfect sense - it's just using mark to market accounting principles.
This is also an appropriate response to people who moan about a gas station increasing the price even if they haven't had a delivery. If prices are increasing sharply, they'll raise it just to make sure they can buy a full delivery on the next pass, regardless of what the stuff in the ground may have cost them.
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Mesatchornug
NES Member
I think you missed an important part of his post. Assuming there exists evidence of orders actually being canceled so CTD can re-price products at a mark up, this is no longer a problem of pricing "too high" and instead one of breaking contracts. I'm all about getting whatever you can from the market, but not by breaking past agreements.
To use Rob's favorite example of a home sale - take whatever profits you can from your property; once you've signed papers, you don't get a do over because the market changed before you actually handed over the keys.
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No, but in times of very rapidly rising prices it is common for sellers to back out of binding sales contracts before any money changes hands, and only those with the stamina for the legal process can complete the contracted purchase. It was not uncommon in the early to mid 80s to buy a house below market in MA - because the market had moved after the buyer and seller had signed the P&S and set the price.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Then why have contracts? I don't think you're implying it's ok to back out, so this is mostly rhetorical, but this garbage is why our society is the "overly-litigious" morass it is. It's not the ambulance chasers' fault, it's that grown adults are willing to even allow the tiniest crack in their belief that the whole point of a contract is to hold both members to it - you agreed to a sale and the market changed? Tough noogies.
This really depends on your hording model.
If you're buying boxes at today's price of $17 each, and turning around and re-saleing them for $40 thats a $28 markup (or a box and two thirds). If you're keeping tabs on your inventory, even if you end up holding your dick on a pallet worth of ammo when prices go back down to $10 a box (which I don't think we'll see again) what you've done is just convert your profit into inventory. Sure, you're making less profit per box, but you haven't necessarily lost money.
Dennis in MA
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Yeah. You got that integrity thing. So it don't make sense to you.
In my experience, less than 10% of people have integrity. Push comes to shove and it's $20,000 "loss" if you stick with a contract, 9 out of 10 people will F you over for the $20K better deal. They'll come up with all sorts of Trumpesque reasons why they had to back out. Ultimately, they valued $20K more than honor.
I watched a group of people pick a raffle prize. It was 2 superbox tix to the Pats. Private parking. The works. Someone donated it and it was for a mission project. This was for a CHURCH raising $ for a MISSION PROJECT!
Well, the folks that ran the raffle pulled a name. And they didn't know the name. SO THEY WERE GOING TO DRAW ANOTHER NAME UNTIL IT WAS SOMEONE THEY KNEW!
What the F????? That S-word stopped right then and there. I saw to it. Damn.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
I believe that you're right, but I'm not ready to start day drinking yet.
AHM
NES Member
Department of Nitpicking
Potentially imperfect analogy, at least in Mass.,
because of this One Weird Law:
At least as recently as the mid 80's, it used to be illegal
to sell gasoline at a loss in Massachusetts.
(Statute evidently passed in the wake of non-competitive collusion).
The sole exception was to accord the seller the privilege of setting their own price
for the gasoline in the tanks when they were selling the entire gas station to someone else.
You could go bankrupt if you filled the station tanks at a high price,
and then the market collapsed - watching cars drive by, unwilling to pay your price.
(Probably never happened because the price never changed that quickly and deeply;
especially since some area competitors had taken delivery at the same inopportune time.
The retail price would stay inflated until the expensive stuff was used up).
The last time I went looking for the law, scant months ago, I couldn't find it in MGL.
Maybe they repealed it.
There's no similar law for ammo.
Jus' sayin'.
Another imperfect analogy.
If some other kind of contract is broken,
a court may well award monetary damages
rather than mandating the contract's execution.
Real estate disagreements may take longer to litigate,
but the remedy is more likely to be specific performance -
an order to complete the transaction.
I'm not arguing in favor of injustice, etc.
I'm just saying that some common domains of our experience
have very uncommon laws governing them,
and one has to be careful when making analogies.
This reminds me of a dealer at several MA gun shows that had a Steyr AUG they were raffling off.
I was browsing some shit while he was talking to the ffl next to him, me motioned to the aug with its fish bowl of raffle tickets and said something along the lines of "That rifle? Its great for attracting business, I don't actually have a date to raffle it off, I'll just keep collecting tickets until I feel like its time to pull one".
Two years after he said that I was at a different MA gun show, and there he was with the same f***ing rifle and fishbowl- going to guess he never pulled the ticket.
I worked a trade show with for a company I used to work for. We had a big fishbowl with a sign "Leave Your Business Card For A Chance For A Ticket To The Ryder Cup". At the end of the day, the president of the company was flipping through the cards and tossing most of them. I asked what he was doing and he said he was picking the winner and wanted it to be someone high enough in some organization to get business from. People lower down the ladder had "a chance", just not much of one.
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You could have always asked if he is a charitable org in business for at least two years, holds a raffle permit, and is going to pay the business diversion tax of 5% (I think) to the MA Lottery Commission.
I think we all know the answer to that question was going to be "get the f*** out of here"
Didn't MA tell Total Wine or whatever they are called that they had to raise their prices.
Is that reverse gouging?
Is that reverse gouging?
