Teen girl shot dead by Los Angeles police firing at suspect in clothing store

meh

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I don’t think the cops saw him swinging a bike lock, and I would think it was pretty dumb for them to pose the bike lock versus gun question as a false dichotomy, anyway. You get reports of both, you assume both. Officer Jones may have recognized the bike lock in the perp’s right hand or not, but inferring that the guy didn’t have a gun because he had a bike lock would just be weird.
 

weekendracer

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It's real easy for you to claim it's justified while ignoring all the evidence right in front of you. He had plenty of time to yell "Stop" or "Hands up" or "Get on the ground" before opening fire. The fact he was moving is immaterial, he was surrounded. with other cops moving to his rear he had nowhere to go. Regardless of whether he thought, subjectively, that he would follow a command he still should have tried. Why are we going straight to shooting a guy you don't know has a weapon who is not moving aggressively without any attempt at not shooting with an unknown backstop?
It may seem like a lot of time, hell, if I watched the video, it may indeed be a second or two.

I'm telling you, from training and 'being there', that time both goes very slowly and extremely quickly, at the same time, to the person who has a threat in front of them. I've seen people do all kinds of things that when debriefed, they literally say they didn't do it. My agency started videoing some of our training just to prove it to people.

I had a trainee flat out execute me one time. Walked up slowly, put gun to the back of my head. The debrief was he/she ran up and told me to drop the weapon. She, oops, never said jack crap, I just heard the blank go off. BTW, I was the good guy with a gun, with a badge displayed, claimed to be a Marshal in plain clothes when they entered the scenario. He/she claimed I didn't say anything. It took 3 'red shirts' to convince the person how it actually went down vs how they perceived it. That's in TRAINING. Imagine how jacked up people are when the adrenaline is cracked to 12.
 
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It may seem like a lot of time, hell, if I watched the video, it may indeed be a second or two.

I'm telling you, from training and 'being there', that time both goes very slowly and extremely quickly, at the same time, to the person who has a threat in front of them. I've seen people do all kinds of things that when debriefed, they literally say they didn't do it. My agency started videoing some of our training just to prove it to people.

I had a trainee flat out execute me one time. Walked up slowly, put gun to the back of my head. The debrief was he/she ran up and told me to drop the weapon. She, oops, never said jack crap, I just heard the blank go off. BTW, I was the good guy with a gun, with a badge displayed, claimed to be a Marshal in plain clothes when they entered the scenario. He/she claimed I didn't say anything. It took 3 'red shirts' to convince the person how it actually went down vs how they perceived it. That's in TRAINING. Imagine how jacked up people are when the adrenaline is cracked to 12.

That all seems very reasonable, stress and adrenaline do crazy things to us. My point is more that he is still responsible for the things he does, regardless of those issues. The fact that he forgot, or chose not to, or thought he had, even attempt shouting at the guy is a pretty bad look. Absent that issue and the other cops seemingly trying to slow him down and him ignoring them, I would probably be on the side of good shoot. The guy that got shot likely deserved it, and was not likely to stop at hitting that one person with a lock.
 

weekendracer

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That all seems very reasonable, stress and adrenaline do crazy things to us. My point is more that he is still responsible for the things he does, regardless of those issues. The fact that he forgot, or chose not to, or thought he had, even attempt shouting at the guy is a pretty bad look. Absent that issue and the other cops seemingly trying to slow him down and him ignoring them, I would probably be on the side of good shoot. The guy that got shot likely deserved it, and was not likely to stop at hitting that one person with a lock.
I'm not picking that fight. :D

When we did high stress training, we'd show the targets afterwards. I'd point to every hole not in the target areas. I'd tell them, you may not go to jail for that one, but you own where it lands. You'll have to live with it.
 

meh

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Any chance they were concerned that making a beeline towards the obvious victim
risked getting flanked by a gunman? That they didn't savor barging past multiple aisles
without peeking around the corner of each to check them for an ambush?

(Any chance they were obsessing over maintaining the pristine size and shape of their "diamond"?)
I think that is the reason they were asking him to slow down.
 

Dadstoys

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Well, to your point. My training was 'stimulus' based. In this case if the guy was swinging a padlock on a chain or whatever it was, it wouldn't be a full send situation. There is no 'stimulus'. This is me sitting here behind a keyboard, strictly talking the fundamentals.


I was pretty select about who I worked with when I had the chance. If they were carrying a shotty, we had the discussion on how it was loaded. Never know when I might pick it up. Random 'person in uniform' showing up with a shotgun always concerned me.

When I carried it, I loaded 2 slugs and 3 buck, in that order. Figured the buck for anything in the open, slugs if they got behind a car door or a cactus. Instead of a tactical ammo change, just push the buck out, and aim in with the slugs. I'm no superhero, I know how much I shake in bad situations, there is some advantage to just point and shoot with a foot wide cone of pain. Edit: Keep in mind, I worked remote desert and/or deep woods most of my career.

It's pretty sad, my agency still trains shotgun, it's 3 or 4 days, 4 hour blocks at the academy. Pretty much never touch them again for actual training purposes. I'm of the school that I'm responsible for every piece of lead. If I have ZERO control of where that lead goes, I want nothing to do with it unless it's already hit the fan and it's messy before I even show up.
They still teaching them how to "Skip " buckshot ?
It was useful practice when you want to take someone's legs out hiding behind a car.
 

Dadstoys

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The initial caller clearly informs the 911 dispatcher that the guy is using a bike lock to hit people and has no knives or guns and the dispatcher correctly relays that information to police. It is also relayed to police that there are customers hiding in the store. This is then confused by another dispatcher who has gotten second hand information from someone who's not even in the store that there is someone shooting.

The first four cops on scene appeared to be formulating a plan, were assessing the situation, and were aware there could be other bystanders or victims in the area they need to clear before taking action. Then Officer rifleman pushes his way past 6 cops, is told "He's hidden behind to the right, near the fitting rooms, the fitting rooms!" Another says "Slow it down partner, slow down partner." Some yells "slow down slow down slow down slow down!" Another yet yells "slow it down, slow it down!" Then finally someone yells "hold up hold up Jones, hold up, hold up!"

I counted Officer Jones be told twice the suspect was near the fitting rooms, and 12 times to slow down or hold up, just prior to him shooting and killing an innocent bystander. He ignored all of that.

So if the call is for someone hitting people with a bike lock, and then another comes in that it's a shooting, and you show up, and nobody is shooting but you do see someone swinging a bike lock, you can disregard what you are observing that aligns with the first report and open fire because the second report said there's a shooting? No need to bother worrying about any innocent bystanders, despite being told people are hiding in the store, and that the suspect is near the dressing rooms? Even though 9 other cops are there, none of whom fired any shots, and several telling you to slow down and hold up, killing an innocent bystander is acceptable?

If that's the case, then we are all better off without any police even showing up. I mean, presumably you want to the police to protect or prevent the criminal from hurting or killing people, so getting the police to do it for him is counterproductive.

Contrast to the Potter case, he knew he was shooting, and made a conscious decision to ignore the risk of hitting a bystander to shoot at someone who retreating from the victim. He made a conscious decision to ignore the other officer telling him to hold up. That's reckless and negligent.
I never heard the bike lock call played , just the active shooter one.
Got a link for that one ?
 

weekendracer

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They still teaching them how to "Skip " buckshot ?
It was useful practice when you want to take someone's legs out hiding behind a car.
They did until a few years ago. We had cars on the range and would demonstrate it. I think something went wrong. The 6 months I was there, I never saw it demonstrate it. We did it with pistols, never saw it with a shotty. We covered that more in tactics than firearms. Same as not standing next to a wall since rounds tend to deflect and continue down the wall. Even with a 120 day program, lots that doesn't get covered.
 
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All that comes to mind with all the modern "bodycam" footage, is the scene in that movie where they place a giant magnet on the evidence shelf next to a VHS tape or hard drive or something, and when it goes to court, the mag media is useless.
 
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When the alternative is dead citizens?

I don't think it's too much to ask that cops be sure of their target, and of the need to fire in the first place.
Isn't that is what is asked of us from them? Isn't that what we ask of members at the club? Isn't that one of the basic 10 Commandments of Gun Safety?

???

I watched the bodycam video. The LEO wanted real bad to get up front/shoot his rifle/get his first CONUS kill.
Continental United States? Was he from Hawaii or Alaska?
 

KBCraig

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I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if it's been mentioned, but: the 911 dispatcher was an idiot.

The caller was trying to get people to evacuate, and the dispatcher kept telling her to stop, listen and answer questions. And the questions just went on and on and on.
 

meh

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I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if it's been mentioned, but: the 911 dispatcher was an idiot.

The caller was trying to get people to evacuate, and the dispatcher kept telling her to stop, listen and answer questions. And the questions just went on and on and on.
Yeah, I was irritated by the dispatcher's impatience. Seemed like their process was to get all that information before making the dispatch. The one that got me, though, was the operator who didn't know what Burlington was (they don't put "Coat Factory" on the building anymore), was given the location as an intersection via two street names, but because she was hung up on Burlington to begin with, couldn't wrap her head around the notion that she'd just been given the cross streets. Then the same operator dispatched by naming the cross streets! Hard to get good help.
 

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I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if it's been mentioned, but: the 911 dispatcher was an idiot.

The caller was trying to get people to evacuate, and the dispatcher kept telling her to stop, listen and answer questions.
Well, for me it certainly highlights the importance of delegation and focus.

If you've been appointed the 911 caller, then call 911 -
don't take time out to scream at the Walking Unconscious to GTFO.

Makes you wonder what kind of people were getting screamed at -
glacial-pace emphysema patients, emergent cell-phone videographers,
shoppers asking if they can try on one more coat, ...

(Would this be one of the situations where you'd pull the building fire alarm?
Not because you want a truckload of Jakes to hut hut hut into harm's way -
although it would have been interesting if the perp had brought a bike lock to a fire axe fight -
but because you want to at least save the lives of everyone who can follow a fire alarm).


And the questions just went on and on and on.
When seconds count,
police are just a few dozen computer screens away from being dispatched.


Yeah, I was irritated by the dispatcher's impatience. Seemed like their process was to get all that information before making the dispatch. The one that got me, though, was the operator who didn't know what Burlington was (they don't put "Coat Factory" on the building anymore), was given the location as an intersection via two street names, but because she was hung up on Burlington to begin with, couldn't wrap her head around the notion that she'd just been given the cross streets. Then the same operator dispatched by naming the cross streets! Hard to get good help.
Word.

Mighta been nice if the caller had said "Burlington Department Store"
instead of "Burlington". Although, thank God Burlington, CA is
nearly 600 miles north in Humboldt County.

(BTW, it just hit me - the Burlington Coat Factory sells 4'x6" paintings? WTF?)

If the chain had been named "Hollywood Coat Factory"
and then changed it's name to just plain "Hollywood",
the perp and girl would still be alive,
because the cops would never have found the place.

Just wait until there's an active shooter at Facebook HQ,
and everyone is directing the police to "Meta",
or Google, and the nitwits are sending them to "Alphabet".
 
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