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Teachers union sues federal department of education over student loans

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CrackPot, Aug 18, 2019.

  1. 5811

    5811 NES Member

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    Too damn bad Picton.... Most cops do the right thing but here on NES it's customary to drop a big deuce on all cops. This is just the teachers turn. Stay tuned, lol, next week is Marine Biologists, the farmers and after that we are gonna shit on furniture movers. But then it will be back to cops for the next 30 consecutive weeks.
     

  2. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    Why the vitriol? His thread title sucks and the article he posted isn't on topic, and I'm not the only one pointing it out.

    Trust me, teachers and their unions get bashed on NES just as often as cops do. More, probably. I'm surprised you haven't noticed. I'm not whining about it, just trying to be accurate.
     
  3. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    I did similar. Freshman year I did get a NSDL for $1K which I could have paid back anytime I wanted but at 3% interest, 10 yrs after graduation to pay and interest didn't start until graduation, I paid it out per their plan. Never borrowed another penny thru the rest of my school years. My Wife was paid dirt thru Co-Op but also between her and her Parents paid their way thru school at NU.

    My Wife taught for 6 years and indeed paid out of pocket for supplies, not a dime reimbursed from either school system she taught in (RI and MA). So yes, teachers do dip into their own pockets for their students' benefit. They aren't paid great but reasonably. Some do work thru the Summer or at least they used to years ago.

    When we graduated college there was a program where IIRC 50% of your student debt could be forgiven (if it was federal loans) if you taught in public schools for xx years (I think it was 10 yrs). I don't think it exists anymore.
     
  4. Tweed

    Tweed

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    Leave No Teacher Behind
     
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  5. 67ray

    67ray NES Member

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    Question why do teachers grades K-8 get paid more with a Masters of Arts than with Bachelors degree? Does that make them better teachers.
     
  6. CrackPot

    CrackPot NES Member

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    A typical teachers contract has a two dimensional table. One dimension is education with values like (B, B+15, B+30, B+45, B+60, M, M+15, etc) The other is steps for years of service or years in grade.

    All teachers contracts seem to require continuing education. You have to move across the B, B+15 dimension and the town pays for your education. Think about it. we pay for them to get more education, then pay a higher salary because they have a higher education.

    Each year they move a step on the second dimension. The higher you go in any dimension the higher your pay.

    The highest step in both dimensions would make your eye water.

    That is the system. Good luck changing it. Any school committee is unlikely to get past "oh my god, its for our children" and give the teachers union whatever they want
     
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  7. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    100% forgiven for publici service and certan non-profit jobs if ALL payments are made on time for 10 years. Get one in 16 days late and you are ineligible.
     
  8. HARRYM

    HARRYM NES Member

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    You left out they don't even put in an 8 hr day...
     
  9. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    Sorta.

    NCLB mandated the states get better at educatin’, and in MA that led to certain dilemmas. MA schools are already good, so the “gotta make ‘em better” options were limited compared to, say, Louisiana. Blame the Feds, not the union. The answers were MCAS and raising teacher qualifications, using degrees and exams (the MTELs).

    Masters’ degrees aren’t mandated for grandfathered teachers, but you have to be working toward one if you’ve been hired since like 2003 or so. In any case, like CrackPot says, continuing ed. is a requirement, just as it is for nurses and other licensed professionals.

    Where CrackPot isn’t quite correct is in stating that towns pay for that. Some do, mostly urban ones with good tax bases and lots of grants. Mine doesn’t. You fund your own continuing ed. where I teach. Some years the town can reimburse some of that, other years it can’t. Everyone I work with (plus myself) is paying for their own advanced degrees. You do get pay bumps afterward, in line with the kind of contract CrackPot lays out above. But once you top out, that’s it. Where I teach, that happens in just nine years.

    They publish the top 100 municipal salaries in my local paper. All the first twenty are police or fire, except the school superintendent. I don’t know whether that’s typical.
     
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  10. Whiskeywon

    Whiskeywon NES Member

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    Hell I don't even need to wait to next week to complain about furniture places. I got a stick up my ass about Raymour & Flannigan at the moment. I don't have any intentions of ever making those kinds of posts though. haha Definitely get the general gist of that though.
    Though they are molding children like parents are at least when the teacher is a massive dickhole it doesn't end with me getting potentially shot along with my dog that was staying 5 miles away with my dad and somehow it being ok.
    While I agree the statement of 14 weeks vacation at whatever rate they are at is more than fair. To say they don't work 8 hour days in a lot of instances of a willfully ignorant statement. I know a good number of teachers even after optimizing and perfectly their grading and year assignments still spend at least an hour or two each night after work grading and doing other prep work. So that's not entirely a fair statement.
     
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  11. Engineer

    Engineer NES Member

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    ^ This but The Ohio State University...
    I did borrow just under $2k to finish up my BS Eng, but Co-Op paid for everything else and paid out the loan just over 2years Later.
     
  12. 5811

    5811 NES Member

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    I thought it was pretty obvious I was just joking. No vitriol, just trying to have a little fun.

    And you are out of your mind if you think teachers catch more flak on NES than cops do. I think cops and politicians are by far the most criticized (rightfully so). Followed by media, judges, liberals in general, anyone driving a car, anyone riding a bike, delivery people and plenty more. Teachers might not even crack the top 10!
     
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  13. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    We used to catch more. There were, before you came, weekly threads on the benefits of homeschooling, complete with much jolly slamming of schools (justified, often) and teachers (justified, sometimes).

    Back then, though, fewer cops were shooting people. So.
     
  14. CrackPot

    CrackPot NES Member

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    Had pretty much decided you had to be a teacher given your reaction to my original post. You have to be detached from comments about your profession or NES will eat you up. I am a professional a**h*** and I never take offense when people say bad things about a**h***s. Everyone has one, after all.

    In my town the police don't make the top of the list. We only have 9 full time police including the chief and they don't make that much. Not enough details available to push them through the top like the larger towns/cities. Our list is dominated by teachers. 75% of our town budget is the schools and about 90% of that is salaries and benefits.

    But hey, this was never REALLY about teachers. This thread was about student debt and the teachers union being the most recent group of morons who don't get it. They just got the title, not the full force of the rant.
     
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  15. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    I beg to differ. You yourself admitted you went off topic in the very first post. But don't let me rain on your parade. As for detachment? Please. This isn't my first day here, and it's well known that I teach. I think I've been pretty even in my responses here.

    But whatever. Enjoy talking about student loan debt repayment lawsuits, in between "ranting" about teacher salaries.
     
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  16. Roland Deschain

    Roland Deschain NES Member

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    I don't have a problem with this group if this was a program that was created and funded, and they aren't following through on their obligations.... but this is laughable.

    "That stands in stark contrast to what one can make with a master’s if they were in the financial services industry. The median annual wage for the industry was $170,000, according to BLS."

    So.... we are comparing a taxpayer funded job to a private sector job that creates wealth? Ok. There was a lot of crybaby bitch ass bitching in that article. Here's the other thing... you have a choice where you get your degree and how much it costs to a degree... get it? Degree? So if someone wants to go to school out of state or somewhere that is prestigious, I don't feel bad for you. I think humans are crafty.... I can imagine someone maxing the old student loan credit card thinking that there is a pot of gold at end of debt rainbow on purpose.
     
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  17. NHAtHeart

    NHAtHeart NES Member

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    And yet most teachers hate homeschoolers because "you can't teach a kid if you don't have a degree in teaching".

    Pretty sure my wife and I are more qualified to teach our kids than most of the hacks in the school system. We paid off our student loans quickly and are fairly successful...
     
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  18. Roland Deschain

    Roland Deschain NES Member

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    @Picton I do have a specific question for you though, and I swear I'm not trolling. I get really frustrated when I read articles talking about teacher salaries in terms of what they make per year, when (and this is not a pejorative) they do have more time off than the average career. Is it not fair to break down their pay in terms of hourly rate when actual hours worked are taken into consideration? If you do that, and using median salaries, are they not pretty decent on the compensation scale? I know you also talked about grading and whatnot as additional time spent not factored in, but we have a former dispatcher here that is making 95k to teach kindergarten... is there really a lot of grading there? I'm totally trying to resist making a snarky crayon remark... too late. ;)
     
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  19. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    You’ll never, ever hear me make a whiny remark about teacher salaries here. I’m very happy with my compensation, and the bottom line is that teachers are almost always in control of their own individual pay: unless they’ve maxed out both the steps and the lanes in their town’s contract, I don’t think teachers have a foot to stand on when whining about pay.

    Not happy with your pay? Go get another masters’. Don’t wanna? Shut up, then.

    People who get into teaching ought to damn well know they won’t get paid like private industry. They have a choice to get into a more lucrative field.

    My feeling, from the start of my career, has been that teaching is probably not as difficult as a lot of teachers think it is. My observation is that anyone who’s worked in another industry (or the military, like me) generally takes well to teaching here because they realize other workers have it much worse. By contrast, people who have ONLY taught, are often the loudest voices in claiming they’re working harder for less.

    They’re not. They just lack perspective.

    This is a longer answer than you might be looking for, and I don’t presume to speak for anyone but myself. But I’m fairly compensated, I think. Because of that, I’m not likely to be loud about my salary. You feel like “all teachers complain,” in part, because you’re only hearing from the discontented ones.

    And I don’t know where you work, but the highest-paid teacher in my town makes nowhere near $95k with two masters’ and forty years in. She doesn’t complain, either.
     
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  20. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

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    I’m all for a system to do a loan forgiveness program - if you make less than X and make all of your payments, your alma mater is on the hook for the rest of the debt. ;)
     
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  21. KVX

    KVX

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    Many teachers work beyond the 7 hours in class room per day,
    some school departments require teachers hand out 2 hours per-night worth of homework, multiply that by 140 students per day.....
    someone has to "correct/check" those homework , at some "time"......
    many teachers deal with more sh*tbags (students and parents sh*tbags) per-day than many police officers deal with.
    teachers don't take 2 hours lunch-breaks like i see 90% of the government hacks that i work amongst does....

    * i did not read OP, so, not commenting on teachers unions....
    carry on.
     
  22. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    That’s okay. Neither has the OP. Not about the lawsuit, anyway.
     
  23. 67ray

    67ray NES Member

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    @Picton - Back to my question does having a Masters make someone a better educator? Why should taxpayers pay for that? I believe the answer is entitlement. Any job (that is not revenue-generating) is worth what it's worth. If a BA can teach kindergarten, then why should the town pay more for a candidate with a Masters? If I need a plumber to do a job, or an electrician, or someone else why would one be worth more than another? The job is the job right.
     
  24. HARRYM

    HARRYM NES Member

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    With all due respect. I personally don't know of anyone who isn't connected to work 24/7 these days. Companies are doing more with fewer people. Now certainly a separate discussion as to if this is right may be in order, but for me I always get calls and e-mails after hours. And if I travel to say NC to visit a customer that's under my standard salary, which ain't more than the average teacher salary in MA these days.
     
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  25. HARRYM

    HARRYM NES Member

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    The cold hard reality of public education is that for over 25 years the standard scores have been declining, only 40% of high school graduates are educated enough to survive their first year in college, there is more brain-washing in schools now than real education, PC correctness is class # 1, over 80% of teachers are blue lever pullers, the average teacher in MA retires at age 57 and the system is consuming more cash than ever. Of all the industrialized nations the US schools rank near the bottom in average test scores.

    Sorry, but this is the reality of public education as it stands today. Not to hurt anyone's feeling but it needs to be said. This country would be far better off with private schools.
     
  26. ridleyman

    ridleyman NES Member

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    I'm a 36 year veteran, recently retired public school teacher, and I agree with many of these comments. Schools are a money pit, and teach victimology almost more than anything else until you get to high school. Even then, who knows what happens? I enjoyed teaching children and interacting with most of my non-SJW, soul saving colleagues, but the doctrinaire meetings, complete with tears, and BS "research" were too much for me.
     
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  27. Boris

    Boris Son of Kalashnikov NES Member

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    it's an interesting concept of suing federal government for screwing up the spirit of the law. Potentially engineers can start suing for issuing HB1s, thus lowering market salaries, farmers can sue for less protections etc.

    As the end result, I can see this turning into emotional topic that will be "fixed" with more laws and more handouts. I doubt that lawsuit will achieve anything legally, but simply raises the issue enough for politicians to pick it up as some topic, time will tell.

    Also, it's pretty horrifying to see the public sector salaries in positions that produce little tangible benefits at the end of the day. Also lol at 24/7 mention. I have no idea who works 24/7 in private sector these days. If anything, 50-55h has been norm a while back with more pressure for longer hours on the same 40h salaries, which effectively brings them down even lower than official numbers. Clown world.
     
  28. Jason Flare

    Jason Flare NES Member

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    Is this something that you really know, as in, you could testify in court to be true?
     
  29. Picton

    Picton NES Member

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    Truthfully, no. I don’t think it makes you a better teacher per se. I think SOME sort of teacher-ed program makes you better at the start; my own bachelors was not in education, so I don’t know how well any of those programs prepare you, but even though I wasn’t too impressed with the rigor of the education masters I got, I was a better first-year teacher with it than I would have been without it. I think.

    But it’s the road not taken. You never really know. And I’m not really defending the masters requirement, either. It’s the law.

    Plus remember, a lot of towns don’t pay for continuing ed. I paid myself for every degree I’ve ever gotten, other than my bachelors. That was mostly Uncle Sam. So the taxpayers didn’t foot the bill of any of my postsecondary education, other than undergrad. Which I paid back by serving.

    I’m certain there are plenty of people out there who’d be excellent kindergarten teachers without any kind of degree. But how would their principal know to hire them, realistically?

    Read the thread. I’m being snarky, but only slightly. I’m well aware of what the OP was doing when he started this.
     
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  30. CrackPot

    CrackPot NES Member

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    A bold statement to assert knowledge of my motivations [banana]

    I read an interesting article on Yahoo (and yes, I READ the article). I then looked for information from other sources and found that the original reporting was back in mid July. Hmm. Why is Yahoo reporting this now?

    It then led to an observation about people influencing students about to go to college and make MAJOR financial decisions that will effect their future. If the teachers union is of the mind of "give me my free shit", then we are doomed. (but this is not news)

    Student debt forgiveness is a load of crap. People complaining about college costs and then going to a $75K/year private school instead of spending $15K-$25K a year on a state school is a symptom. Getting a college degree in European Art History from 1820-1825 and expecting a job to pay off your investment is a symptom. People are stupid and lazy and want others to take care of them and fix their bad decisions.

    So I posted a rant in Off Topic and NES took it where NES will take things.

    Motivation? None. I posted what was on my mind. Yes, teachers got hit in the cross fire, but so what. This is NES. Everyone is collateral damage on NES.

    Good luck articulating my motivation. Remember, I am a self professed professional a**h***. Nothing is sacred and I will take shots at anyone/anything if I think their behavior is stupid, hypcritical, self-serving, etc. Whatever.

    NES is entertainment. Lets keep it that way.
     
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