Where do street results factor in?
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In the NYPD study they tried to establish a relationship between range results and street results and they were unable to, which says range performance doesn't equate to street performance.
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Here's a question for you. How does NYPD determine the distance between the suspect and the officer after a police shooting, and how do they incorporate barriers and obstructions into those figures? A follow up question would be how do they differentiate between the CQ OIS's involving lots of movement vs. the ones where the shooter and the suspect are stationary?
Have you read anything more than the basic, widely circulated
summaries of NYPD's shootings?
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A quick answer is where is your proof to back up anything you say?
The NYPD data covered THOUSANDS of combat cases, so even if you tossed out a hundred here and a hundred there, the results would be just about the same.
I have read all that I can get my hands on. Where is the NRA and the gun makers on this since they gain money wise with membership and gun buyers. To bad that they are generally silent on the issue that is the main reason for buying a weapon that is designed to kill, which is being able to use one in self defense.
At least the NRA has come out in favor of point shooting.
If one wants to have a gun for sport/range shooting, a BB gun could be used to establish predominance and whose the best of the best in the world on the range.
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Well you're going to have to explain that study to a certain SWAT cop in Texas who put three .223's into an armed felon from less than 10 feet away with his AR, using the sights. You'll also have to explain it to the deputy & trooper in Ohio who exchanged shots with the Kehoe brothers. Yes, they used their sights, but it turns out their close quarters shooting wasn't as cut and dried as the statistics on it, or the Ron White routine explaining what went wrong. None of those guys reported distortions in their vision while shooting in close quarters, they all found the sights just fine. I bet you couldn't tell me about how their "hit rates" were tabulated though.
In another interesting shooting, a cop chased an armed suspect across a bustling city street. In the officers recollection, he shot at the suspect while chasing him, without the suspect firing back. He specifically stated that he raised his gun and fired at the guy's back while still sprinting and killed the suspect. Other officers involved in the shooting specifically stated that as the suspect fled, he turned and fired at the officer chasing him, so the officer stopped running, carefully aligned his sights and shot the suspect. There were other factors that made that shooting more intense that I'm describing it, but when stuffing it into stats, which account should carry more weight?
Blindly compiled stats don't do much for your case when they don't include detailed accounts from the shooters involved and everyone else at the scene. They also don't take into account the chaos that surrounds these messy events.
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Again where is your proof via broad based scientific studies and stats of more than incidental, albeit important events?
As I recall, Jim Cirillo used his sights in his first shootout, but he had the element of suprise and he was the agressor, not reacting in a self defense mode. Who wouldn't use their sights if they could, there was time to use them, and the environmental conditions and dynamics of a situation would allow for their use.
P&S is not a bar to the use of the sights. It can get you one target fast, instinctively and accurately. You can then polish off the shot with the sights if you wish to and can.
This is about close quarters killing situations, not across the street shooting/marksmanship where the Fight or Flight response affect on fine motor skills and vision will not be adverse. At least that's what the science says.
The Kehoe brothers encounter is detailed in an article on my site. It was the reason I began my journey into the world of the gun.
Before I saw it on TV, I thought you folks in the gun world knew what you were doing.
The TV clip clearly shows that not to be the case as neither hit anything but air. I have a couple of copies of the TV clip recorded at that time or soon after. If you watch it several times, you will find that the narrative and the video differ as to what was taking place.
We can see the Deputy firing, hear the noise and see his gun jumping, and it doesn't look like he's using his sights.
Be that as it may be, let's look at the studies done by several police agencies, the FBI, or anyone else, which can inform gun buyers, cops, and military folks of what they can expect in a real close quarters life threat situation, and importantly, which shooting method works the best or better than most in such situations. Sadly there are none or rest assured I would already have had several shoved down my throat.
If the method I tout ends up on the bottom, so be it.
I await studies and their proof, and will gladly publish it (with permission), on my site for all to see.
The goal is to reduce the number of Police and others who and shot/maimed/murdered.
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Cops are taught some sightless shooting for close quarters. Some agencies incorporate it into their qualification course of fire, others don't teach it at all. But as everything with police across the nation, it isn't uniform, and often changes.
Using fractions and percentages to re-state the exact same isolated figures isn't helping you any. Did you know that there are LE agencies with astonishingly high hit rates across the board, despite training and regularly reinforcing to their guys to use the sights? Could you explain that anomaly to me?
While you're at it, you can explain how the hit rates of every police officer in the US are formed, considering that the overwhelming majority of police departments are small in size, without the same AAR standards as NYPD.
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I know that the CA CHP went to point shooting, using a method similar to Applegate's. Lou Chiodo led the way. There is an article on my sight about that, and a link to an interview of Lou by Paladin press.
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