Survival Point Shooting Video + others

[5shot]

Survival Point Shooting Video + others

Here's some U-tube links to some Point Shooting videos +
a controversial one on IMHO a design flaw of the 1911.

Survival Point Shooting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk

Point Shooting while moving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYV6cfoNQ-I

Point Shooting at aerials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRcK4WJMl5c

A controversial video on
the design flaw of the 1911: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw

 

[Supermoto]

I don't see the point. what is the benefit With the normal grip, your sights are aligned anyways so why use a grip were you are losing a lot of strength and control over the gun.

the 1911 slide stop pin can be milled flat to the frame, preventing it from being pushed out.

 

[5shot]

Thanks for your response.

As to the 1911, I have not experienced a jam with one, and only shot one many many years ago. More recently I shot a gun with a similar slide stop design, and experienced two jams. The slide stop pin does not have to be pushed out, only depressed some. How much I don't know.

The bottom line is that a 1911 user is left with no sure, easy, practical and effective way to fast and accurately shoot a 1911 in a CQB situation, as Sight Shooting can not or will not be used.

There are other Point Shooting methods that may be able to be employed, but the method shown is the simpliest of methods and at the same time is not a bar to their use or even the use of Sight Shooting.

It is for use at CQB distances, and it is at those distances that there is the greatest chance of one being shot and/or killed.

As to the sights being aligned when a gun is gripped, In a high stress CQ life threat situation, the literature says you will have a crush grip on the gun, so you can forget using just a three fingered target shooting grip with the thumb not pressing on the gun and with the index finger being held aloof from the gun, and as such, it won't matter much which finger is used to pull the trigger.

With the method shown, you will have the gun in a strong four finger grip that provides a level shooting platform. You can squeeze the gun in a crush grip and all you will do is improve the strength of the grip. Elbow smashes or pront punches can be made, and the gun and forarm can be used as a crude battle axe if needed. The sights will stay in alignment as long as the index finger is along the side of the gun, and keeping it there allows each shot to be made fast and accurately by just pointed at the target.

There are articles on my site that cover the method in brief and in detail, plus articles on the grip and using the middle finger on the trigger, the inability and/or failure of Sight Shooting being able to be used in CQB situations, and etc.. And there are stats and studies referenced that support what is said.

Best thing is it can be learned with little or no training and maintained with the same. Common sense and safe gun handling practices must be used, and of course practice can improve performance.

Here's the link if your interested in reading more about it plus the research and stats and studies that support its use. www.pointshooting.com

 

[whatluck]

Aha! I knew it! Promotional material!

 

[drgrant]

For all the numerous faults of the 1911, IMHO that isn't one of them. Who the hell presses on the slide stop pin while the gun is firing?

Further, you can point shoot a 1911 without using that bizarre, unnatural grip if you really want to. I'd never fire a gun like that unless my trigger finger was missing.

-Mike

 

[5shot]

I get lots of hits on my site (over 4 mill in the last 2 years), so am not hunting for'em.

..........

The method was well known to the US military and mentioned in it's first manual on the 1911, and in a bunch of other ones that I have been able to find on the web, up until the 1940's.

Here's a link to the chronology, which starts in the early 1800's: http://www.pointshooting.com/1achrono.htm

Don't plan on debating it here. All the info I have developed on it is on my site if your interested in learning about it. Much of the info has been developed in response to negative comments received.

To date, I haven't come across a method that IMHO is better.

It's also free, You are welcome to try it at your own risk and expense.

Don't use it with a 1911, if your index finger will extend beyond the front or the barrel, or rest over the ejection port, or be hit by the slide, or with a revolver if your finger will be burned from gases escaping from the cylinder.

Here's a link to a page that shows 4 NEW guns that appear to be a perfect match for it.
http://www.pointshooting.com/1a3guns.htm

Don't like the method, no need to use it or knock it.

 

[DickWanner]

What happens when you have to shoot farther than 15ft and need to use your sights? I would bet money that you can point shoot with a standard grip just as effectively as with this modified grip. Not to mention learning two different techniques could screw you up when you need one and revert to the other when SHTF. And we're only knocking it because of it's apparent flaws...

 

[TheWookie]

I can't believe my own eyes. Talk about trying to re-invent the wheel. Never, have I seen or heard ANYONE teach shooting like this. You want me to use my middle finger as my trigger finger? WHAT? Talk about screwing with your shooting position at the last and worst possible moment. FYI -- They don't teach this at the basic level in the USMC, and they do plenty of CQ fighting, and it definitely isn't taught at any USMC advanced shooting schools. I don't remember the NRA or Bill rogers teaching this so you definitely have the patent on this technique. I'd like to see someone come out of the holster with this nutty grip thing and be effective, and it won't impress me if it's the guy who promotes this madness. Show me some entry level shooter doing this effectively.

Good luck, I hope it works in your moment of truth.

 

[ScottS]

The bottom line is that a 1911 user is left with no sure, easy, practical and effective way to fast and accurately shoot a 1911 in a CQB situation, as Sight Shooting can not or will not be used.

What an absurd hyperbole, completely devoid of any factual foundation, and in complete denial of the last 40 years or so of practical shooting experience and training. So, I guess all those schools that taught 1911 training like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch were just too dense to see the truth? And those guys that successfully shot (and still shoot) 1911's competitively to ridiculously fast times and accuracy--to include "CQB ranges"-- what are they doing?

The best part:

Don't like the method, no need to use it or knock it.

Or even debate it, evidently.

I guess somebody's always selling something. Good luck.

 

[Jamie]

What is your affiliation with Armed Response?

 

[Another_David]

This is a forum, which means ideas are openly discussed. If you didn't want to see posts with negative feedback you should have bought a banner ad.

But why switch from the traditional technique? I can pull the trigger with my index finger and point and shoot within 20 ft. just fine.

Also, I would think that a two finger hold on a duty gun like a Sig 226 or Beretta 92 would be tough unless you have banana hands.

 

[TheWookie]

The more I think about it the more I chuckle, c'mon man. You are not telling me that at the moment of truth that you are NOT going to be fumbling with your grip trying to do this crazy, middle finger trigger pull/booger finger point at the booger man thing. Serious? Unless you train someone like that from day one, and always train like that, you will fumble and fail at the moment of truth -- doing this goofiness. In all my humble years I admit I have seen a competition shooter doing the middle finger thing once in a slow fire NRA good ole boy shoot down south. But that wacko would be like soup if he tried that on a 360 range.

I think of all the years and repetitions that I have dry fired my presentation focusing on a good solid three finger grip (the foundation) and to dork myself up doing this is pure madness.

I'm usually pretty open to other training methods, but this is straight wacky.

 

[TheRoland]

I

The method was well known to the US military and mentioned in it's first manual on the 1911, and in a bunch of other ones that I have been able to find on the web, up until the 1940's.

This method was "well known" in that instructors were to admission trainees not to do it. It appears this way in a couple of the sources on your timeline, does it not?

I think the basic idea has merit, as I like monkey-pointing towards the target as much as the next guy, but I'm unconvinced there's much evidence it's worth the degradation of technique otherwise. I'd like to see some results on a timer.

EDIT: For example, what's your El Prez time with this technique vs not? If ten yards is too far, what's the FAST time (7 yards) vs not? We're in an age were we can quantitatively test the effectiveness of these techniques. There's no reason to take airsoft videos and assertions when there are standards you could measure!

 

[5shot]

I'm not affiliated with Armed Response.

..........

The method is not new. It's been around since the early 1800's and was well know to the US military. The Chinese military used it with the C96.

Sad fact is that Sight Shooting can not be used or is not used in CQB situations.

Its use in CQB situations is a nice theory. However; there is no proof that it works when needed.

How about some pics or a video of it being used effectively in CQB.

There are none, yet it has been taught to millions over the past 100 years. Should be hundreds if not thousands of them.

Not being argumentative, just looking for facts in support of SS theory. I will post it/them on my site with a courtesy mention of the supplier.

Here's a link to a page on my site that has been set aside to display it/them when and if found or presented. http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm

Ever have an instructor present you with pics or videos of SS ever being used effectively in CQB. Next time you go to a class, ask them for some, and then send them to me or provide me with a link. I will appreciate that.

............

The method is for CQB use, and it is not a bar to using the sights or other PS methods. It enhances them. If you can see the sights and use them, certainly do so.

Also using the middle finger on the trigger makes sense as it is stronger than the index finger and pulls back straighter in the hand so there is less deviation introduced when it is used. And being stronger it makes shooting double action guns much easier.

Try it at your own risk and expense. Maybe that will help.

It works and is not dependant on using a target shooting grip and being able to focus on the sights and use them in aiming the gun. It is for CQB use.

If you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet. And most all gunfights happen at less than 21 feet.

If you want to make a case for shooting in self defense beyond handgun distances, that's OK with me.

Read what Larry Seecamp, whose pistols come without sights, has to say about that: http://www.pointshooting.com/1acamp.htm

What people have done and still do, is what they have done and still do. And so what?

In the olden days, people were burned at the stake for questioning the theories that those in charge believed in.

Same is true today, except words are used instead of stakes, straw and matches.

That's an improvement to my way of thinking.

As to speed, it's faster for me in putting a gun on the target than using the sights to put a gun on a target.

As to speed and flexibility, how are you at shooting aerials with a pistol?

As to the 1911, there was a caution against using it with the 1911, because if the slide stop pin is depressed when the 1911 is fired, it can jam. That wording or close to it, is found in many manuals. What isn't said, is what to use when you can't focus on or see the sights, and that's the rub IMHO.

 

[TheRoland]

If you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 80% chance that it will happen at less than 20 feet. And most all gunfights happen at less than 21 feet.

Can you show that at 21 feet, on a timer, middle-finger trigger manipulation can be as fast and as accurate as a 'traditional' grip? Can you do so with a 'traditional drill', such as as an El Prez (which should really be at 30 feet) a Bill Drill (at 21 feet) or a FAST test (draw-2 rounds on 3x5 card, reload, 4 rounds on 8" circle)?
If so, great! I'd love to see that. If not, why not?

 

[Another_David]

The Jack Ruby photo and description on your site is priceless, btw. I'm not really convinced he's pulling the trigger with his middle finger though.

2/3 down the page here http://www.pointshooting.com/1911.htm

 

[DickWanner]

I'm not affiliated with Armed Response.

Then why are you posting in their sub-forum?

 

[Admin]

Then why are you posting in their sub-forum?

I moved it out.

 

[ScottS]

Sad fact is that Sight Shooting can not be used or is not used in CQB situations.

Oh, that's a fact? Interesting. Pretty short on support for a supposed fact.

You might have a better reception if you cast your "theory" as just that: I think Point Shooting can be more effective than Sighted Shooting..." rather than silly dogmatically assertions.

 

[TheWookie]

http://ccwnebraska.yuku.com/topic/3158

http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/02/25/point-shooting-vs-sight-shooting-rand-report/

http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?4172-Sights-or-Point-Shooting-in-CQB-Situations& THIS ONE IS FUNNY

http://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/5shot

This here is interesting...

If you wish to learn the rationales for, the bio mechanics of, plus lots more on P&S, and self defense and other point shooting methods, that info is on my site.

Also included at this time are the US Army and Marine Corps manuals that provide complete descriptions of what one must do to meet what "they" call the fundamentals of basic pistol marksmanship, which are necessary to the use of the sights in Sight Shooting.

http://www.wikihow.com/Discussion:Point-and-Shoot-or-P&S

The links above are evidence that this guy, John Veit just trolls around the Internet looking for some schmeg to bite, like an old snake oil salesman. He is looking for hits on his website, really, one of those link he talks about 1.5 million hits. Blah, Blah, Blah.

 

[5shot]

I moved it out.

Thank you.

 

[5shot]

http://ccwnebraska.yuku.com/topic/3158

http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/02/25/point-shooting-vs-sight-shooting-rand-report/

http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?4172-Sights-or-Point-Shooting-in-CQB-Situations& THIS ONE IS FUNNY

http://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/5shot

This here is interesting...

The links above are evidence that this guy, John Veit just trolls around the Internet looking for some schmeg to bite, like an old snake oil salesman. He is looking for hits on his website, really, one of those link he talks about 1.5 million hits. Blah, Blah, Blah.

Here's a link to the stats if you really are interested: http://www.stats.pointshooting.com

BTW, what type of shooting do you believe will work in CQB situations, and what proof do you have in support of it.

 

[5shot]

Can you show that at 21 feet, on a timer, middle-finger trigger manipulation can be as fast and as accurate as a 'traditional' grip? Can you do so with a 'traditional drill', such as as an El Prez (which should really be at 30 feet) a Bill Drill (at 21 feet) or a FAST test (draw-2 rounds on 3x5 card, reload, 4 rounds on 8" circle)?
If so, great! I'd love to see that. If not, why not?

Per the literature and what is posted here and there, most home defenders are not shootists, and most folks with a gun for self defense don't practice much or get much training.

The NRA supports the use of Point Shooting for CQB as they say Sight Shooting can't be used due to the the dynamics of those situation, lighting, or some other factor/s.

Here's a pic of what is said to be OK for defensive Point Shooting:

http://www.pointshooting.com/nra1.jpg

In the text in the book they say: "If your shots are spreading....beyond the maximum allowable group size (an 8 1/2 inch by 11 inch sheet of paper) at 7 yards, you should slow down."

Here's a pic of me shooting my first 5 shots of the day at 15 feet with a rental. I just pointed at the target and pulled the trigger as fast as I could point-n-pull.

http://www.pointshooting.com/xd1027ta.jpg

I am sure a shootist type could shoot faster and more accurate, but I can only do what I can do.

Also, no connection has been established between range and street performance. So what one does in one "venue" does not guarantee the same in another.

In regards to shooting drills, and the practical need for them, per the NYPD's SOP 9:

The average number of shots fired by individual Officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the Officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

 

[Another_David]

If I normally point like this

do you think I should shoot like this?

I'd like to see the research

 

[Gadsden]

what the hell happened to that guy's hand?

The shooting technique he USED to use!

 

[TheWookie]

I'm with her, 5shot....



A cat, too!

 

[Admin]

This thread makes my head hurt.

 

[Jose]

Dude, you were run out from Gabe Suarez's forum for your constant hawking of your stupid, useless technique.

The Army doesn't teach that crap. The Vermont State Police, contrary to your insistent claims, doesn't teach it either.

Nobody teaches it. Nobody cares.



ETA: You and FirearmPops should get together to train.........

 

[5shot]

I still visit Warrior Talk. Since Roger has become the resident guru on PS, I have limited my inputs. Much to the approval of some of the members.

I support most all types of PS (QK, CAR, FAS), as being better for CQB use than SS.

The VSP never taught P&S as I call it, as a formal class. Never said it did, so you must have gotten your info from someone else.

Walter J, Dorfner, the long time lead firearms trainer of the VSP (since retired and died), felt it would be the next step in survival shooting. He introduced new recruits to it informally.

Here's a link to a paper he wrote on it based on his work and experimentation with it, and which I made a digest of. We both had it published in Police pubs. http://www.pointshooting.com/1apands.htm

..........

Noticed the pic of the full gangsta grip. One major trainer used to use / uses a "quarta gangsta" as an avatar.

It's natural and helps lock up the wrist to improve recoil control.

Note: I get tired after awhile, so it's time for rest.

 

[TheRoland]

Per the literature and what is posted here and there, most home defenders are not shootists, and most folks with a gun for self defense don't practice much or get much training.
....

Thanks for the response, but I'm a little slow, and am not sure I get it. You're saying that such tests would be appropriate, and would show that while sight shooting might be faster and more accurate for "shootist-types", your method would be faster and more accurate for untrained or less skilled users? Is that an accurate re-statement?

If so, I think that's plausible, but sounds to me like a reason to train, practice, and be a "shootist-type", not a reason to do more point shooting.


EDIT: Generally speaking, we live in the age of the shot timer. It's not just professionals or gamers that have them. If someone's going to state the efficacy of an unusual technique, it seems like standard times and targets might be something they should also present, if only to validate what they're doing to themselves.