Supreme court case against MA on guns

pastera

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Since we live in the internet age training is readily available online for free. No excuse for a citizen NOT to know basic safety rules for handling a firearm if interested in purchasing and owning a firearm. Requiring a sanctioned in person safety class is just another hoop to jump thru for the average Joe or Jane. If newbie Joe or Jane walks into said gun shop and inquiries into buying a Glock the salesperson would give a simple instruction in operation, disassembly and reassembly of said firearm and any adult knows enough not to point a firearm at anything that he, she doesn't intend to shoot.
Really bad assumption - however, as long as it's a selfie...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za2ezCNvBeU


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uEW02TbuhU


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I18tSng8BVk

 

drgrant

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Big difference between muzzle swept and pointing a loaded gun at an unintended target. Being muzzle swept at the range is stupid and dangerous but common sense, much different than at a gunshop.

"Tucker Carlson Voice" : "No, it's not. "

For starters, its an elemental, basic, bedrock gun safety rule. Especially in THAT kind of environment.

It is bad form to assume that "its not as bad becuz the gun is probably unloaded". All that goes right out the window the first time you see a nipplehead fussing with their carry gun in a
gun shop. [laugh] Thankfully, however, most people are courteous enough to ask before doing that, but some.... might as well be Joe Fungoehead moron types.
 

microwave900

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Since we live in the internet age training is readily available online for free. No excuse for a citizen NOT to know basic safety rules for handling a firearm if interested in purchasing and owning a firearm. Requiring a sanctioned in person safety class is just another hoop to jump thru for the average Joe or Jane. If newbie Joe or Jane walks into said gun shop and inquiries into buying a Glock the salesperson would give a simple instruction in operation, disassembly and reassembly of said firearm and any adult knows enough not to point a firearm at anything that he, she doesn't intend to shoot.
Im going to take a different direction from everyone else and agree with (most) of your post.

When I first bought a gun I was not a commiewealth resident. I walked into a gun store and bought a model of gun I’d fired before with friends and brought it home. I read the owners manual before fingerbanging it. Once I was comfortable with the basic mechanical functions of it I watched a lot of YouTube videos. No formal training was involved. I took it to the range a bunch and nobody got hurt. You can learn almost anything you need on the internet.

It’s true that some people don’t have the good sense to do that, or to follow the 4 rules, but much like free speech they are allowed to be idiots if they choose because this is a free country.
 

SFC13557

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Im going to take a different direction from everyone else and agree with (most) of your post.

When I first bought a gun I was not a commiewealth resident. I walked into a gun store and bought a model of gun I’d fired before with friends and brought it home. I read the owners manual before fingerbanging it. Once I was comfortable with the basic mechanical functions of it I watched a lot of YouTube videos. No formal training was involved. I took it to the range a bunch and nobody got hurt. You can learn almost anything you need on the internet.

It’s true that some people don’t have the good sense to do that, or to follow the 4 rules, but much like free speech they are allowed to be idiots if they choose because this is a free country.
My point is everyone these days is used to taking classes/instruction from online classes, I don't see what's the difference between online and in person as far as basic firearm safety and the issue was State mandates for in person class. The actual handling of a loaded firearm and marksmanship obviously should be done in person and at a range.
As far as muzzle sweeping big difference between doing it at a range with loaded firearm and handling a cleared gun in a gun shop IMHO. Customer walks in, asks to see firearm in case, salesperson asks for LTC, withdraws firearm from case, clears firearm and hands it to customer.

As I've stated before I ran ranges in the Army and being muzzle swept at the range would result in a butt stroke to the head but in the Armory/Barracks Soldiers were cleaning rifles everywhere and walking around with weapons pointed in every direction. That's why when you left the range they were inspected for ammo, "No Brass, NO Ammo Sergeant". In Boot Camp at FT.Benning(Not For Long) the best part of the day was sitting outside the barracks cleaning your rifle and the least of our worries and the Drill Sergeants was pointing cleared rifles at your battle buddy. THAT IS ALL! :cool:
 

M1911

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As I've stated before I ran ranges in the Army and being muzzle swept at the range would result in a butt stroke to the head but in the Armory/Barracks Soldiers were cleaning rifles everywhere and walking around with weapons pointed in every direction.
Which is why in a friend's unit of the 101st, when they were deployed during the Iraq invasion, one his squad mates was "cleaning" his loaded M4 and ended up having an ND which hit another soldier.

Pointing a gun at someone is not OK, even if you think it is unloaded. Plenty of people have been shot with guns that they thought were unloaded.
 

drgrant

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My point is everyone these days is used to taking classes/instruction from online classes, I don't see what's the difference between online and in person as far as basic firearm safety and the issue was State mandates for in person class. The actual handling of a loaded firearm and marksmanship obviously should be done in person and at a range.

Theres a big difference in learning formats, some people can learn well in one and not the other. Others need direct intervention.

Also even a well written curriculum cant cover everything. Being able to ask instructors questions and demonstrate things is a huge help to newbies.

As far as muzzle sweeping big difference between doing it at a range with loaded firearm and handling a cleared gun in a gun shop IMHO. Customer walks in, asks to see firearm in case, salesperson asks for LTC, withdraws firearm from case, clears firearm and hands it to customer.
[rofl]

You write this like this is the ONLY circumstance in which someone in a gun shop is going to be handling a gun? Because a clerk annointed them? [rofl]

Lol so if you're "customer B" across the shop and you suddenly turn around and you see another "Customer A, as in A is for a**h***" pointing a gun at you, or sweeping you, how do you know that gun has been cleared? [rofl]

If the clerk is standing there you might infer that said gun is probably unloaded, but guess what, sometimes clerks have to go and get boxes, paperwork , etc. Or sometimes a clerk might have to answer a telephone while a customer is dicking arund with a gun.

Also theres no magical force field that keeps guns from becoming loaded in gun shops. Apparently you've never had the pleasure of witnessing a nipplehead take a live carry gun out of his holster and use it to try other holsters on in the store..... [rofl] I have. THANKFULLY most people are not that retarded, but still. It's also fun when you're looking at someones trade and its still loaded right in the f***ing pistol rug. Usually those people are hard skinflints (usually the ammo is almost crusted in the gun etc. )

Assuming that guns people are handling are unloaded "cuz you're in a gun shop" is just horrifically bad, failure driven mindset. That horrible mindset is exactly how people get hurt, counters get shot, people shoot through their hand, etc.

Also a gun shop is not some 110% cold range. It's the polar opposite. YOU ARE EFFECTIVELY IN A HOT RANGE even if people are not shooting. Sure the guns shown to customers typically are going to be clear, but heres some facts..... 2/3rds or even all of your staff has LOADED GUNS on their person. And in free states there are lots of LOADED GUNS sprinkled around the infield in non customer areas. Your customers are frequently carrying loaded, usually holstered guns into your store, too. Theres no dude at the door that magically clears every firearm that enters the building. [rofl] If you're lucky you have a sign that reminds people to not be retarded.

This happened about 15 yrs ago but I literally was at Deli Ticket Emporium on a thursday night where I watched a 90? year old guy muzzle sweep a clerk with a revolver loaded with
glaser safety slugs. Thankfully the clerk got the guy to stop being a retard and he unloaded the gun and directed the guy to not reload it in the store. (that guy shouldnt have been carrying shit, but thats a whole other story)

It's also just an etiquette/decorum thing- going back to my earlier example... how would you like to have a gun with the action closed pointed at you? I generally dont like it. Even when I know 110% the gun is unloaded. I don't want people sweeping my other customers, either.

You wouldnt be saying any of this if you have witnessed this stuff a few times. I have. In the real world in gun shops there is literally nothing that ever makes sweeping someone NOT a
safety violation.. It's something that you want to snuff out right away- because it could potentially save them or someone else from making a horirble mistake later. I'm not saying you have to leap over counter and tackle someone, but getting them to stop flagging people with the "unloaded" gun and getting them to understand that its f***ing stupid, is a GOOD THING (TM). It makes it so the safety behavior becomes engrained. Then maybe, as if by f***ING MAGIC, because it was reinforced so much, that person will at least not be sweeping anyone else if they can avoid it. Or at least their brain will be more likely to default to the right gear.

Food for thought: Most NDs and shit like that are often preceeded by some nipplehead going "It's OK its unloaded" [rofl]


As I've stated before I ran ranges in the Army and being muzzle swept at the range would result in a butt stroke to the head but in the Armory/Barracks Soldiers were cleaning rifles everywhere and walking around with weapons pointed in every direction. That's why when you left the range they were inspected for ammo, "No Brass, NO Ammo Sergeant". In Boot Camp at FT.Benning(Not For Long) the best part of the day was sitting outside the barracks cleaning your rifle and the least of our worries and the Drill Sergeants was pointing cleared rifles at your battle buddy. THAT IS ALL! :cool:

Lol and thats why DOD firearms safety practices best resembles something from clown world, and still there are guys firing shots into clearing barrels and that kind of
stuff... or at least people I know who were in have told me about silly shit like that happening. When the system treats people like toddlers it shouldnt be shocked when
toddler-grade incidents happen. Of course part of the problem is they have to deal with training shitloads of people with guns and a large % of those people dont belong anywhere near
a gun to begin with. So I get that, but that doesn't make it any less dumb. The real world doesnt have sanitary freezer cold areas for guns and people shaking others down to make
sure they have no ammo. The real world is a hot range with loaded guns on it 99% of the time.

ETA: to be 110% clear I am not BLAMING YOU for this. Its obvious in those situations people HAVE TO follow the established protocols. Even if the protocol is dumb, otherwise you get in trouble. I get that.
 
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APFSDS

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Which is why in a friend's unit of the 101st, when they were deployed during the Iraq invasion, one his squad mates was "cleaning" his loaded M4 and ended up having an ND which hit another soldier.

Pointing a gun at someone is not OK, even if you think it is unloaded. Plenty of people have been shot with guns that they thought were unloaded.

I know someone who shot themselves with a cleared, unloaded gun. Or at least they thought it was. They voilated multiple safety rules. Even if you "know" a gun is cleared, it's still a gun and should always be treated as loaded. I have even had instructors avoid muzzle sweeping people with demo guns (i.e. non-firing models) to keep themselves from getting too comfortable doing it. In some instances you have to point a fake gun at someone, like in simunitions training, but everyone left their real guns in their cars and we did a buddy pat-down to make sure nobody had any real knives or guns on them.
 

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Was standing at the gun counter at Bass Pro just browsing once. I watched this idiot say to the idiot behind the counter "can I see that one?" The clerk says "do you have a license?" to which the guy replied "not on me." So the clerk tells the guy he can show it to him but he cant handle it and the guy nods his head in agreement. So out comes the gun and within five seconds its in this morons hands and to make matters worse the clerk lets him do it without saying even a word. I'm watching this shit show unfold and I'm thinking to myself what doosh move is this guy going to pull next. No sooner did the thought enter my brain I watch this F'n moron turn the barrel towards his face, close one eye and take a long hard look down the barrel. My eyes came six inches out of my head. I dont go near that gun counter anymore.
 

PappyM3

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… like in simunitions training, but everyone left their real guns in their cars and we did a buddy pat-down to make sure nobody had any real knives or guns on them.
… Simunitions uses real guns.

Personally, I think there are reasonable times to treat a gun as unloaded. Training events with simunitions or blanks and having strict control of the ammunition in the area is one.

But also if I’ve literally just cleared the gun and double check cleared it, and it hasn’t left my direct control, and there are no live ammo in magazines nearby. Otherwise dry fire practice would never happen.

Basic gun safety rules are important, but not all of them are absolute.
 

mcshooter

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You know, that judge might not be the best for this case. I'm thinking they should run a urine test on him and check his social media. [rofl]

I still have a bit of wonder of WTF they were doing. Maybe just an FU while delaying the inevitable. Or, as I've posited in teh past, they be crazy. This guy is hopefully gonna s-can the whole law. That way NYS can appeal and get further B-slapped. More appeal. More B-slap. Eventually, 2 years form now, C-Tom will pull a Thanos on them all.
Half the time I have no idea what the hell you are saying.

Speak in da engrish
 

drgrant

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Was standing at the gun counter at Bass Pro just browsing once. I watched this idiot say to the idiot behind the counter "can I see that one?" The clerk says "do you have a license?" to which the guy replied "not on me." So the clerk tells the guy he can show it to him but he cant handle it and the guy nods his head in agreement. So out comes the gun and within five seconds its in this morons hands and to make matters worse the clerk lets him do it without saying even a word. I'm watching this shit show unfold and I'm thinking to myself what doosh move is this guy going to pull next. No sooner did the thought enter my brain I watch this F'n moron turn the barrel towards his face, close one eye and take a long hard look down the barrel. My eyes came six inches out of my head. I dont go near that gun counter anymore.

Let me guess the action was closed while he was doing it too so he couldn’t even see the rifling if he wanted to LMAO….
989793CB-8EC4-4732-ACB5-E854228A403E.jpeg
 

mcshooter

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"Tucker Carlson Voice" : "No, it's not. "

For starters, its an elemental, basic, bedrock gun safety rule. Especially in THAT kind of environment.

It is bad form to assume that "its not as bad becuz the gun is probably unloaded". All that goes right out the window the first time you see a nipplehead fussing with their carry gun in a
gun shop. [laugh] Thankfully, however, most people are courteous enough to ask before doing that, but some.... might as well be Joe Fungoehead moron types.
I've seen this first hand. Some dumb ass at a gun shop unloaded a carry weapon while unholstering it. The guy got kicked out
 

M1911

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A friend of mine told me about one time he came back from the range with an “unloaded” AR. He had finished shooting, locked the bolt open, and put the gun on his open gun case. No mag in the rifle. While policing up his brass, he found a live 5.56 round that someone had left. He tossed that round in the case, closed up the case and went home.

He put the gun case in the basement and had dinner. After dinner he went downstairs to clean his gun and put in the safe. He took it out of the case, closed the bolt, and was about to “dry” fire it when he realized he hadn’t checked that it was unloaded. He knew it was unloaded because he had put it in the case unloaded. But that little nagging voice in his head told him to check. He pulled back the t-handle and out flew that stray 5.56 round. Somewhere between the range and the basement, that live round had rattled around inside the case until it worked its way right into the chamber.

Yet another example of why pointing “unloaded” guns at people is not ok.
 
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Also a gun shop is not some 110% cold range. It's the polar opposite. YOU ARE EFFECTIVELY IN A HOT RANGE even if people are not shooting. Sure the guns shown to customers typically are going to be clear, but heres some facts..... 2/3rds or even all of your staff has LOADED GUNS on their person. And in free states there are lots of LOADED GUNS sprinkled around the infield in non customer areas.
I mentioned to the owner of a long out of business gun shop in upstate NY where I used live that one of the gun is his display case had been left loaded. He told me it was intentional and his entire staff knew which the loaded one was in case of emergency.
 

APFSDS

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… Simunitions uses real guns.

Personally, I think there are reasonable times to treat a gun as unloaded. Training events with simunitions or blanks and having strict control of the ammunition in the area is one.

But also if I’ve literally just cleared the gun and double check cleared it, and it hasn’t left my direct control, and there are no live ammo in magazines nearby. Otherwise dry fire practice would never happen.

Basic gun safety rules are important, but not all of them are absolute.

correct me if I’m wrong but when they’re converted for simunition use they can’t chamber or fire real ammunition…

We used Glock 17Ts, which have a different frame color, slide (IIRC) and barrel with an offset bore. I don't think you can put a normal barrel in it, it's straight blowback. Mags are the same. I have not used simunitions in long guns so can't comment on that.
 

PappyM3

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We used Glock 17Ts, which have a different frame color, slide (IIRC) and barrel with an offset bore. I don't think you can put a normal barrel in it, it's straight blowback. Mags are the same. I have not used simunitions in long guns so can't comment on that.
Yeah, pistols use different slides/barrels.
 
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A friend of mine told me about one time he came back from the range with an “unloaded” AR. He had finished shooting, locked the bolt open, and put the gun on his open gun case. No mag in the rifle. While policing up his brass, he found a live 5.56 round that someone had left. He tossed that round in the case, closed up the case and went home.

He put the gun case in the basement and had dinner. After dinner he went downstairs to clean his gun and put in the safe. He took it out of the case, closed the bolt, and was about to “dry” fire it when he realized he hadn’t checked that it was unloaded. He knew it was unloaded because he had put it in the case unloaded. But that little nagging voice in his head told him to check. He pulled back the t-handle and out flew that stray 5.56 round. Somewhere between the range and the basement, that live round had rattled around inside the case until it worked its way right into the chamber.

Yet another example of why pointing “unloaded” guns at people is not ok.
It’s amazing to me that people don’t use chamber flags when the rifle is at least in transit to, from (and during) the range trip. Rifles that I often shoot are always flagged at home, too.

Overheard at the range once: I don’t use chamber flags because I know when the gun is loaded.

Ok…
 

PappyM3

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I don’t use chamber flags. I don’t see the need. When I pick up a gun, the first thing I do is check the chamber.

If I put the gun down and then pick it up again, I check chamber again.
Yup. But I do like them at ranges with other people so everyone can visually verify each other from a distance when going down range.
 
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