Sunapee PD requiring 4 page P&R Application

[drgrant]

Seriously guys, cut the crap.

-Mike

 

[NHDaveK]

Other towns may "want" a letter from a reference, but asking for an additional form to be submitted with the official application should be enough to put them over the edge and in violation of "No other forms shall be used by officials of cities and towns."

If you go to the Sunapee NH page for the Police Department, it has the link to the reference letter, and a link out to the official state form.

Thats probably what they want him to do,send the letter.I just gave a ref for a friend in Newbury,similar letter ( although they did not put the "toe the best of your knowledge" part in the questions.
The PD sent out with stamped envelope to send back. I know of a few town that don't even bother with the letter,as I have been a reference for the permittee and I was never sent a letter.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Thats probably what they want him to do,send the letter.I just gave a ref for a friend in Newbury,similar letter ( although they did not put the "toe the best of your knowledge" part in the questions.
The PD sent out with stamped envelope to send back. I know of a few town that don't even bother with the letter,as I have been a reference for the permittee and I was never sent a letter.

Until recently, I didn't know there were any towns in NH that did the letter thing. Aside from question of whether asking in advance for the letter is even legal, given that they have only 2 weeks to make a permit/deny decision, the whole "letter" approach seems flawed. What do they do for an applicant if they don't get any letters back in time?

 

[CAESAR]

This.

When you win the case, the PD will be forced to pay for your legal expenses.

Is this true? Will they be forced?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ScottS]

Is this true? Will they be forced?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

.

159:6-f Remedies. –
I. If any licensing entity or employee or member of the city council or board of selectmen, in violation of the provisions of this chapter, refuses to comply with this chapter, such entity or person shall be liable for reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred in a lawsuit under this chapter to enforce the terms of this chapter, provided that the court finds that such lawsuit was necessary in order to obtain compliance with this chapter by the licensing authority. Fees shall not be awarded unless the court finds that the entity or person knew or should have known that the conduct engaged in was a violation of this chapter or when the parties, by agreement, provide that no such fees shall be paid. In any case in which fees are awarded under this chapter, upon a finding that an employee, or other official of a licensing entity has acted in bad faith in refusing to comply with this chapter, the court may award such fees personally against such employee or other official.

 

[NHDaveK]

Until recently, I didn't know there were any towns in NH that did the letter thing. Aside from question of whether asking in advance for the letter is even legal, given that they have only 2 weeks to make a permit/deny decision, the whole "letter" approach seems flawed. What do they do for an applicant if they don't get any letters back in time?

As far as I know most do the letter thing,I have had mine for 13 years here and each renewal they do the same 3 references and letters.Every one who I have been a reference for here in Newbury they did the same thing.Tamworth did not send the letter when I was a reference on application there) and they did not to the other two on that application.

The question has been asked about what would happen if you did not return it,don't know but the way I read the law they would still have to approve it.That said I never tried not sending them back,only takes a few seconds and don't really want to screw up a friends permit app.

 

[neEEGuru]

Thats probably what they want him to do,send the letter.I just gave a ref for a friend in Newbury,similar letter ( although they did not put the "toe the best of your knowledge" part in the questions.
The PD sent out with stamped envelope to send back. I know of a few town that don't even bother with the letter,as I have been a reference for the permittee and I was never sent a letter.

Use the stamped letter for some personal mailing and consider it a 'gift' from the state.

 

[NHDaveK]

Nope,

Really don't want to screw up the guys permit,I sent it in, pretty painless and he got his permit a couple days later.

 

[Boghog1]

Nope,

Really don't want to screw up the guys permit,I sent it in, pretty painless and he got his permit a couple days later.

what you tolerate you validate. have him contact a lawyer ASAP

 

[ScottS]

Nope,

Really don't want to screw up the guys permit,I sent it in, pretty painless and he got his permit a couple days later.

No way would I ever answer/fill-out one of these. I have to agree. By playing along, you simply validate extra-legal requirements.

 

[Mr Weebles]

No way would I ever answer/fill-out one of these. I have to agree. By playing along, you simply validate extra-legal requirements.

This. 1,00 times this.

Certified letter goes to the PD with the standard application. That's all.

 

[beaker]

The Chief a transplant from a commie state?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[NHDaveK]

No way would I ever answer/fill-out one of these. I have to agree. By playing along, you simply validate extra-legal requirements.

Sorry but that BS,if I am given as a reference from a friend,who BTW I use as one,I am happy to take 10 seconds and fill it out.
If you feel you want to make a big deal out of it have someone do it when YOU apply for yours and make YOUR stand then not on someone else s permit!

While I agree there may not be a viable reason to deny a permit if they don't receive a letter back from a reference.If you use a reference on the state approved application then there is no reason for them not to send a letter or call them.Most towns send the letter,some do nothing but they are in the minority.

 

[NHDaveK]

what you tolerate you validate. have him contact a lawyer ASAP

If you care to make a stand on something so silly,then go ahead with YOUR permit,no reason hold someone elses permit up.As I stated above,if the CLEO called me and asked about him I wold be happy to give a good reference,signing a letter is no different.
More town do the letter then not,it states names and "mailing address's.
http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/documents/dssp85.pdf

I have no problem if YOU want to make a big deal of it with your permit,go ahead.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I've seen a couple statements here that "most towns send the letter". Deserves it's own thread.

The difference with Sunapee is that they request the letter as part of the application, which appears to be a violation of state law.

 

[Boghog1]

If you care to make a stand on something so silly,then go ahead with YOUR permit,no reason hold someone elses permit up.As I stated above,if the CLEO called me and asked about him I wold be happy to give a good reference,signing a letter is no different.
More town do the letter then not,it states names and "mailing address's.
http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/documents/dssp85.pdf

I have no problem if YOU want to make a big deal of it with your permit,go ahead.

This is exactly how liberties are lost
the form only requires name an address

159:6 License to Carry. –
I. The selectmen of a town or the mayor or chief of police of a city or some full-time police officer designated by them respectively, upon application of any resident of such town or city, or the director of state police, or some person designated by such director, upon application of a nonresident, shall issue a license to such applicant authorizing the applicant to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in this state for not less than 4 years from the date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property or has any proper purpose, and that the applicant is a suitable person to be licensed. Hunting, target shooting, or self-defense shall be considered a proper purpose. The license shall be valid for all allowable purposes regardless of the purpose for which it was originally issued. The license shall be in duplicate and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee. The original shall be delivered to the licensee and the duplicate shall be preserved by the people issuing the same for 4 years. When required, license renewal shall take place within the month of the fourth anniversary of the license holder's date of birth following the date of issuance. The license shall be issued within 14 days after application, and, if such application is denied, the reason for such denial shall be stated in writing, the original of which such writing shall be delivered to the applicant, and a copy kept in the office of the person to whom the application was made. The fee for licenses issued to residents of the state shall be $10, which fee shall be for the use of the law enforcement department of the town or city granting said licenses; the fee for licenses granted to out-of-state residents shall be $100, which fee shall be for the use of the state. The director of state police is hereby authorized and directed to prepare forms for the licenses required under this chapter and forms for the application for such licenses and to supply the same to officials of the cities and towns authorized to issue the licenses. No other forms shall be used by officials of cities and towns. The cost of the forms shall be paid out of the fees received from nonresident licenses.
II. No photograph or fingerprint shall be required or used as a basis to grant, deny, or renew a license to carry for a resident or nonresident, unless requested by the applicant.

They are breaking the law plain and simple

 

[ScottS]

Sorry but that BS,if I am given as a reference from a friend,who BTW I use as one,I am happy to take 10 seconds and fill it out.
If you feel you want to make a big deal out of it have someone do it when YOU apply for yours and make YOUR stand then not on someone else s permit!

While I agree there may not be a viable reason to deny a permit if they don't receive a letter back from a reference.If you use a reference on the state approved application then there is no reason for them not to send a letter or call them.Most towns send the letter,some do nothing but they are in the minority.

I'm just telling you, if I ever get one of these letters, I will wipe my ass with it. You do whatever you need to.

 

[Realtor MA]

I'm a little confused. If I'm reading this thread properly the form requires references. Wouldn't that infer that the PD would possibly check those refererences? I also understand from this thread that if they are unable to reach the references the statute still requires them to issue the license. If I've got that right it seems like a) returning the reference letter is not a big deal b)if you don't return the letter it too is no big deal.
That being said if someone uses you as a reference I would assume they have asked you first. If your plan is to avoid speaking and or writing to the PD then why be a reference at all? Just say no.

 

[Boghog1]

Just contacted Senator Odell since there are people that will allow the government to trample their rights, the fact you even need to pay for the right is enough of an infringement, having to fill out none needed forms is BS

 

[Boghog1]

So I got a response. The forms are not required

From: Senator Peter Bragdon
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:50 AM
To: Boghog1
Subject: Re: State Pistol and Revolver License


Boghog1 - I don't know if you heard back from Sen. Odell or not, so I thought I would follow up since I have spoken with Sen. Odell who has spoken with Chief Cahill in Sunapee.

My understanding from Sen. Odell and Chief Cahill is that the only thing required from the applicant is the official state application (as well as some money). The official state application does, however, contain a place to list three references and a signature line authorizing the police chief to, essentially, check those references. To make things move smoother and quicker, the Sunapee PD for years has requested letters of reference from the people used as a reference, which basically asks the same questions the chief would ask when checking out the references. Having the applicant provide that information is one less step for the police chief to perform and it avoids all the phone-tag issues that could consume time.

According to Chief Cahill an application would not be denied if a person did not submit the reference form, but the process would take longer because the chief would then have to chase down each of the three references provided on the state form to interview them. It might actually help the applicant to provide the reference letters because then he/she knows that the right answers have been provided.

Since the reference letters are not required, I don't think this is a violation of the law, though others more familiar with the laws (Dave Wheeler, for example) would be better versed on case law.

Is that answer satisfactory, in your opinion?

Peter

Senator Peter Bragdon
Senate President
NH State Senate - District 11




At 11:02 AM 8/14/2012, you wrote:


Hello Senator Odell
I am contacting you today because I have a friend that does not want to hinder his chance of getting a pistol & Revolver permit but his police department is breaking state law. they are requiring reference letters in addition to the permit application
http://www.town.sunapee.nh.us/Pages/FV1-0001DB04/Ref Letter.pdf

per NH RSA 159:6 License to Carry. –
I. The selectmen of a town or the mayor or chief of police of a city or some full-time police officer designated by them respectively, upon application of any resident of such town or city, or the director of state police, or some person designated by such director, upon application of a nonresident, shall issue a license to such applicant authorizing the applicant to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in this state for not less than 4 years from the date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property or has any proper purpose, and that the applicant is a suitable person to be licensed. Hunting, target shooting, or self-defense shall be considered a proper purpose. The license shall be valid for all allowable purposes regardless of the purpose for which it was originally issued. The license shall be in duplicate and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee. The original shall be delivered to the licensee and the duplicate shall be preserved by the people issuing the same for 4 years. When required, license renewal shall take place within the month of the fourth anniversary of the license holder's date of birth following the date of issuance. The license shall be issued within 14 days after application, and, if such application is denied, the reason for such denial shall be stated in writing, the original of which such writing shall be delivered to the applicant, and a copy kept in the office of the person to whom the application was made. The fee for licenses issued to residents of the state shall be $10, which fee shall be for the use of the law enforcement department of the town or city granting said licenses; the fee for licenses granted to out-of-state residents shall be $100, which fee shall be for the use of the state. The director of state police is hereby authorized and directed to prepare forms for the licenses required under this chapter and forms for the application for such licenses and to supply the same to officials of the cities and towns authorized to issue the licenses. No other forms shall be used by officials of cities and towns. The cost of the forms shall be paid out of the fees received from nonresident licenses.
II. No photograph or fingerprint shall be required or used as a basis to grant, deny, or renew a license to carry for a resident or nonresident, unless requested by the applicant.

I am not sure who should be contacted but I would hope you could forward this to appropriate party

Boghog1

The information in this email and subsequent attachments may contain confidential information that is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). This message or any part thereof must not be disclosed, copied, distributed or retained by any person without authorization from the addressee.

 

[PixelPusher]

According to Chief Cahill an application would not be denied if a person did not submit the reference form, but the process would take longer because the chief would then have to chase down each of the three references provided on the state form to interview them.

So Chief Cahill is just lazy. I get it.

Nice ass cover you got there Mr. Cahill.

 

[ScottS]

As we (Sen Bragdon and Chief Cahill) understand it can't take longer than 14 days, no matter what, then I'm not concerned about his laziness. Not approving of it, but as long he doesn't violate the statutory 14 day limit, not as concerned.

 

[PixelPusher]

As we (Sen Bragdon and Chief Cahill) understand it can't take longer than 14 days, no matter what, then I'm not concerned about his laziness. Not approving of it, but as long he doesn't violate the statutory 14 day limit, not as concerned.

Agreed.

Still think his "excuse" for the letter request is a D-Bag move.

 

[Boghog1]

and it really should say something to the effect of to expedite the permit process please include these letters

 

[Mr Weebles]

To make things move smoother and quicker, the Sunapee PD for years has requested letters of reference from the people used as a reference, which basically asks the same questions the chief would ask when checking out the references. Having the applicant provide that information is one less step for the police chief to perform and it avoids all the phone-tag issues that could consume time.

According to Chief Cahill an application would not be denied if a person did not submit the reference form, but the process would take longer because the chief would then have to chase down each of the three references provided on the state form to interview them. It might actually help the applicant to provide the reference letters because then he/she knows that the right answers have been provided.

This is such horseshit. Here are the instructions from the reference letter form, taken directly from the Sunapee PD website:

INSTRUCTIONS: SEND THIS LETTER TO EACH OF THE REFERENCES LISTED ON YOUR APPLICATION. ONCE COMPLETED AND RETURNED TO YOU, SEND/DELIVER YOUR COMPLETED APPLICATION WITH THE 3 REFERENCE LETTERS TO THE SUNAPEE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

No one reading that is going to think the reference letters are optional.

If Cahill has to do a little extra work to look up contact info for references, that's too goddamned bad. It's part of his job.

 

[06LemansC6]

Not to mention there is nothing on the NH application stating said references need to live in NH. You could give a reference in CA somewhere. MOST COP here in NH know the references are a joke. It's like giving references on a job application. Nobody is going to list anyone that will say negative things about them.

 

[Boghog1]

I used a guy from Alabama for a reference once, this next app should be good too

 

[Kicker96FS]

I used a guy from Alabama for a reference once, this next app should be good too

Pick out some names from the old U.S.S.R., Somalia, Maybe Greece. That should make everyone laugh.

 

[edhead35]

I'm a little confused. If I'm reading this thread properly the form requires references. Wouldn't that infer that the PD would possibly check those refererences? I also understand from this thread that if they are unable to reach the references the statute still requires them to issue the license. If I've got that right it seems like a) returning the reference letter is not a big deal b)if you don't return the letter it too is no big deal.
That being said if someone uses you as a reference I would assume they have asked you first. If your plan is to avoid speaking and or writing to the PD then why be a reference at all? Just say no.

If the PD can send out the reference requests, get them back in time, and issue the license within the state limits they can certainly check your references. My references didn't answer the phone ( I was new to NH and actually gave their phone numbers ). He still has to issue even though he got no response. Any time you use a reference, you always ask first, but in most cases I just tell people for their NH P&R license, just tell the references they do not have to answer calls or letters any way. It is optional.