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Suggestions for C&R pistols/revolvers?
- Thread starter Beansie_Time
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- Nov 5, 2005
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Replied, thanks!
I've heard of that ammo but there was another type that was recently selling on the surplus market that was rumored to be questionable for use in CZ52s.
I just ordered a Czech CZ-52, dated 1952. I have been looking for a '52 since that was the year I was born and the first one that I or the seller had ever seen! Can't wait for it to arrive!![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
So YOU'RE the one who bought the 1952 '52... Congrats! I was looking at the pic thinking "I know I don't need another one, but I want it!" I think you did me a favor by whipping out your credit card before I could
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 2,284
- Likes
- 353
So YOU'RE the one who bought the 1952 '52... Congrats! I was looking at the pic thinking "I know I don't need another one, but I want it!" I think you did me a favor by whipping out your credit card before I could
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
, I just ordered an armorer's kit also. Gun + kit should = longevity. I've been looking for a 1952 (my birth year) for a long time.What to get depends on what you like, of course. You might consider these, all of which have some history, and good to excellent exemples of which were available for under $300 within the past year. A few were sold on Gunbroker, AUction Arms, etc for about $100 -- but those were extrememly good deals on very good days!
Pistols that were used by the Germans in WWII and are stamped with German military "Waffen marks," or "Waffenized," are priced at a (usually significant) premium; sometimes the marks (acceptance codes, swastikas, etc) are faked.
Good luck!
Bill
Automatics:
French Model 1935-A, Model 1935-S, 1935-S M1 (revised safety lever)
These are two different pistols from two manufacturers (SACM and MAC), but both based on the same design. These were used by the French military from the 1930s until the 1950s (production ceased in 1956), so in WWII, Indochina, Algeria, etc. The 1935-A was also used by the Germans (who called it a P625f) in WWII after capturing the SACM arms factories; the 1935-S parts were hidden and there was no production during WWII. They are regarded as very reliable and durable, and are the immediate ancestor of the highly regarded Swiss & Danish military 9mm SIG P210, which some call the most accurate automatic made. The 1935-S was developed into the 9mm model 1950, which some French forces still use in Afghanistan, although it is officially obsolete.
Chambered in 7.65mm Long, 8 round magazine
1935-A:
1935-S:
French MAB Model D
This was used by the French military, state agencies (for example, Customs -- think cigarette smuggling across the Mediterranean), and state police from the 1930s into the 1960s. During WWII also used by the Germans (model Pistole MAB Kaliber 7.65mm) after capturing weapons stocks and the MAB factories. Carried by French forces in Indochina until replaced by the model 1935-S and later the model 1950, and then sometimes as "personal weapons".
Chambered in 7.65mm (.32 ACP), 9 round magazine, with versions in 9x17mm (.380 ACP), 7 round magazine
MAB D (French State Police marked), 7.65mm:
US Savage Model 1907
Based on a .45 automatic Savage developed for the US Army (in competition with the Colt 1911), but never adopted. This smaller version was intended for the civilian market, but was also extensively used in WWI (some 27,000 were purchased by the French military, for example, and over 1,200 by the Portuguese Navy) and into WWII by various militaries. A little known but interesting military automatic.
Chambered in .32 ACP, 10 round magazine, with versions in .380 ACP.
Savage 1907, military version (note lanyard ring):
Makarov PM & variants
This comes in Soviet, East German, Bulgarian, and Chinese milsurp flavors, with (post-Soviet) Russian, Bulgarian, and German civilian versions. The usual order for quality is EG, Soviet, Bulgarian, and Chinese, but individual examples vary. The Soviet and EG versions are C&R (the USSR and DDR no longer exist), I think the Bulgarian and Chinese are not (but may be wrong on that). The civilian versions are not C&R. Pricing for any of these may push your $300 limit -- but limits are made for pushing!
Common discussion topic: Which is better, the Makarov or the CZ-82?
Chambered in 9x18mm Makarov, 8 round magazine
Soviet Makarov PM:
Hungarian FEG-62
Based on the Walther PPK, and also uses the Makarov ammo. There were two versions. Early military and police models had a two-tone (black on polished aluminum) look rare for military pistols; later versions had the metal blued. A a well-respected and hardy pistol, used from 1963 until 1996, and replaced by the FEG-P9 (in NATO-standard 9mm) after the fall of the USSR. Military versions have a longer barrell (100 mm) and came with and without thumbrest grips.
Chambered in 9x18mm Makarov, 7 round magazine
Two-tone version:
Later blued version with thumbrest grips:
Hungarian FEG P9RC (Army Model 96.M)
A Browning HiPower variant, designed in 1980, still in military use. Also sold in civilian versions (FEG P9R, Mauser DA-90). Uncommon, but they show up.
Chambered in 9mm, 14 round magazine
Tokarev T-33 & variants
Like the Makarov, variants from many countries besides USSR, including Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia, China, possibly North Korea. Used by Soviets from 1930s until 1954, and after by other countries. Pistols captured and issued to troops by the Germans in WWII were called "Pistole 615(r)". Another very hardy and reliable pistol.
Chambered in 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 8 round magazine
Revolvers:
British Enfield Revolver No. 2 Mk I, Mk I*, and Mk I**
Developed by the Enfield RSAF (Royal Small Arms Factory) in the 1920s. It is a break-top revolver, with design influence from the Webley Mk IV design (the exact relationship is unclear, and led to a lawsuit Webley lost). The Mk I is Single Action and Double Action, and was in production from 1932 until 1938, when it was replaced with the Double Action only Mk I* version (all existing Mk I pistols were supposed to be converted to Mk I*). The Mk I* version, called the "tanker" version, lost the hammer spur and the ability to fire Single Action. Officially the change was to prevent the hammer spur catching on clothing, equipment, etc for Royal Armour Corps troops (hence the name "tanker"), but was probably to speed production because of WWII. In 1942 the Mk I* was replaced with the Mk I**, also a tanker version, with a few internal changes. Production stopped in 1957, but these were not completely removed from British military service until 1969, and saw service in Korea, the Middle East, etc.
Chambered in .38 S&W, 6 rounds.
Enfield No 2 Mk I:
Enfield No 2 Mk I** (I* looks the same):
Webley Mk IV
Very similar to the Enfield No 2 Mk I (but no interchangable parts), another breaktop revolver. SA and DA. Official alternative to the Enfield No 2 Mk I, when Enfield could not meet wartime production needs. In military use from 1932-1969, but also used by many Commonwealth police forces after that. Production ceased in 1978.
Chambered in .38 S&W, 6 rounds.
Both these break-top guns look similar to the larger .455 Webleys used in the Indiana Jones movies, so have a certain "cool" factor.
US Smith & Wesson "Victory"
The "Victory" revolver is also known as the "Military & Police" (M&P), and the "pre-Model 10". S&W still makes it (updated) as the Model 10. There were two military versions of the Victory, one for the US military and another for British Commonwealth military forces, where it was another official alternative to the Enfield No 2 Mk I (except for the Canadians, who made it their standard military revolver).
The US military Victory has a 4" barrel and is chambered in .38 Special. The British Commonwealth military Victory has a 5" barrel and is chambered in .38 S&W. Some US and British Victories were made with different length barrels (2" or 6"), but many of the standard 4" and 5" barrels were cut down after WWII to 2".
In WWII, the US Victorys were commonly used in shoulder holsters by aircrews, especially by the Navy and Marines. They were used through the Vietnam war by USAF Air Police and by aircrews, and still in use into the 1990s.
Chambered in .38 Special (US military), and in .38 S&W (British Commonwealth military); 6 rounds.
US Navy Victory, 4" barrel:
British Commonwealth S&W Victory, 5" barrel:
Pistols that were used by the Germans in WWII and are stamped with German military "Waffen marks," or "Waffenized," are priced at a (usually significant) premium; sometimes the marks (acceptance codes, swastikas, etc) are faked.
Good luck!
Bill
Automatics:
French Model 1935-A, Model 1935-S, 1935-S M1 (revised safety lever)
These are two different pistols from two manufacturers (SACM and MAC), but both based on the same design. These were used by the French military from the 1930s until the 1950s (production ceased in 1956), so in WWII, Indochina, Algeria, etc. The 1935-A was also used by the Germans (who called it a P625f) in WWII after capturing the SACM arms factories; the 1935-S parts were hidden and there was no production during WWII. They are regarded as very reliable and durable, and are the immediate ancestor of the highly regarded Swiss & Danish military 9mm SIG P210, which some call the most accurate automatic made. The 1935-S was developed into the 9mm model 1950, which some French forces still use in Afghanistan, although it is officially obsolete.
Chambered in 7.65mm Long, 8 round magazine
1935-A:
1935-S:
French MAB Model D
This was used by the French military, state agencies (for example, Customs -- think cigarette smuggling across the Mediterranean), and state police from the 1930s into the 1960s. During WWII also used by the Germans (model Pistole MAB Kaliber 7.65mm) after capturing weapons stocks and the MAB factories. Carried by French forces in Indochina until replaced by the model 1935-S and later the model 1950, and then sometimes as "personal weapons".
Chambered in 7.65mm (.32 ACP), 9 round magazine, with versions in 9x17mm (.380 ACP), 7 round magazine
MAB D (French State Police marked), 7.65mm:
US Savage Model 1907
Based on a .45 automatic Savage developed for the US Army (in competition with the Colt 1911), but never adopted. This smaller version was intended for the civilian market, but was also extensively used in WWI (some 27,000 were purchased by the French military, for example, and over 1,200 by the Portuguese Navy) and into WWII by various militaries. A little known but interesting military automatic.
Chambered in .32 ACP, 10 round magazine, with versions in .380 ACP.
Savage 1907, military version (note lanyard ring):
Makarov PM & variants
This comes in Soviet, East German, Bulgarian, and Chinese milsurp flavors, with (post-Soviet) Russian, Bulgarian, and German civilian versions. The usual order for quality is EG, Soviet, Bulgarian, and Chinese, but individual examples vary. The Soviet and EG versions are C&R (the USSR and DDR no longer exist), I think the Bulgarian and Chinese are not (but may be wrong on that). The civilian versions are not C&R. Pricing for any of these may push your $300 limit -- but limits are made for pushing!
Common discussion topic: Which is better, the Makarov or the CZ-82?
Chambered in 9x18mm Makarov, 8 round magazine
Soviet Makarov PM:
Hungarian FEG-62
Based on the Walther PPK, and also uses the Makarov ammo. There were two versions. Early military and police models had a two-tone (black on polished aluminum) look rare for military pistols; later versions had the metal blued. A a well-respected and hardy pistol, used from 1963 until 1996, and replaced by the FEG-P9 (in NATO-standard 9mm) after the fall of the USSR. Military versions have a longer barrell (100 mm) and came with and without thumbrest grips.
Chambered in 9x18mm Makarov, 7 round magazine
Two-tone version:
Later blued version with thumbrest grips:
Hungarian FEG P9RC (Army Model 96.M)
A Browning HiPower variant, designed in 1980, still in military use. Also sold in civilian versions (FEG P9R, Mauser DA-90). Uncommon, but they show up.
Chambered in 9mm, 14 round magazine
Tokarev T-33 & variants
Like the Makarov, variants from many countries besides USSR, including Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia, China, possibly North Korea. Used by Soviets from 1930s until 1954, and after by other countries. Pistols captured and issued to troops by the Germans in WWII were called "Pistole 615(r)". Another very hardy and reliable pistol.
Chambered in 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 8 round magazine
Revolvers:
British Enfield Revolver No. 2 Mk I, Mk I*, and Mk I**
Developed by the Enfield RSAF (Royal Small Arms Factory) in the 1920s. It is a break-top revolver, with design influence from the Webley Mk IV design (the exact relationship is unclear, and led to a lawsuit Webley lost). The Mk I is Single Action and Double Action, and was in production from 1932 until 1938, when it was replaced with the Double Action only Mk I* version (all existing Mk I pistols were supposed to be converted to Mk I*). The Mk I* version, called the "tanker" version, lost the hammer spur and the ability to fire Single Action. Officially the change was to prevent the hammer spur catching on clothing, equipment, etc for Royal Armour Corps troops (hence the name "tanker"), but was probably to speed production because of WWII. In 1942 the Mk I* was replaced with the Mk I**, also a tanker version, with a few internal changes. Production stopped in 1957, but these were not completely removed from British military service until 1969, and saw service in Korea, the Middle East, etc.
Chambered in .38 S&W, 6 rounds.
Enfield No 2 Mk I:
Enfield No 2 Mk I** (I* looks the same):
Webley Mk IV
Very similar to the Enfield No 2 Mk I (but no interchangable parts), another breaktop revolver. SA and DA. Official alternative to the Enfield No 2 Mk I, when Enfield could not meet wartime production needs. In military use from 1932-1969, but also used by many Commonwealth police forces after that. Production ceased in 1978.
Chambered in .38 S&W, 6 rounds.
Both these break-top guns look similar to the larger .455 Webleys used in the Indiana Jones movies, so have a certain "cool" factor.
US Smith & Wesson "Victory"
The "Victory" revolver is also known as the "Military & Police" (M&P), and the "pre-Model 10". S&W still makes it (updated) as the Model 10. There were two military versions of the Victory, one for the US military and another for British Commonwealth military forces, where it was another official alternative to the Enfield No 2 Mk I (except for the Canadians, who made it their standard military revolver).
The US military Victory has a 4" barrel and is chambered in .38 Special. The British Commonwealth military Victory has a 5" barrel and is chambered in .38 S&W. Some US and British Victories were made with different length barrels (2" or 6"), but many of the standard 4" and 5" barrels were cut down after WWII to 2".
In WWII, the US Victorys were commonly used in shoulder holsters by aircrews, especially by the Navy and Marines. They were used through the Vietnam war by USAF Air Police and by aircrews, and still in use into the 1990s.
Chambered in .38 Special (US military), and in .38 S&W (British Commonwealth military); 6 rounds.
US Navy Victory, 4" barrel:
British Commonwealth S&W Victory, 5" barrel:
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Ahh yes the enfield and webley revolvers. I have to get both to go with my enfields.![[devil2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/017.gif "Devil2 [devil2]")
Nice post Gun Shy...I love those French handguns. If only they came in 7.65 or 9x18 instead of the 7.65 long! I don't reload and don't plan to start soon so I don't want to chase an obscure round. I've seen some MAB Ds around just never pulled the trigger (pun intended) You listed some great and interesting options!
Welcome and nice contribution.
You listed some great and interesting options!Welcome and nice contribution.
Nice post of some of the main C&R guns available, Gun_Shy. +4 for you!
"Influenced" is a bit of an understatement. The Enfield is almost an exact copy of the Webley. And of course Webley lost the lawsuit; Enfield was government owned. The British government straight out stole the Webley design and built it cheaper 'in house'. The government eventually appeased Webley however, by awarding them an 'innovation' award and throwing them some money to make them go away.
"Influenced" is a bit of an understatement. The Enfield is almost an exact copy of the Webley. And of course Webley lost the lawsuit; Enfield was government owned. The British government straight out stole the Webley design and built it cheaper 'in house'. The government eventually appeased Webley however, by awarding them an 'innovation' award and throwing them some money to make them go away.
Well, I know that's the general view, but I also know it is not universally accepted. The counter argument is that both the Webley Mk IV and the Enfield No 2 Mk I were derived from the .455 Webley Mk VI, which Enfield had produced under license from Webley during the 1920s (during the time both the Webley Mk IV and the Enfield No 2 Mk I were being designed). In this case, the award to Webley was in recognition that it had contributed to the Enfield design. Same facts, different story.
In any case, Webley's concern was really about getting gun orders. It had been the sole supplier of British gov't revolvers since the 1890s, other than the licensed Webley Mk VI made by Enfield for a few years in the early 1920s. Once the British military accepted the Webley Mk IV as an official alternative standard service revolver to meet wartime needs, and the gov't orders began pouring in, the issue became moot.
Ironically, by all reports the other alternative standard service revolver, the Lend Lease S&W Victory, was preferred to either British revolver by the troops, who would happily trade their Webleys and Enfields to get one. Of course, they hadn't had the benefit of seeing the Indiana Jones movies, much less Captain Jack (of BBC's "Torchwood"), so didn't realize how uncool this made them.
Anyway, I have no dog in this fight -- I own and shoot all three of these revolvers, and find they play very well together!
Bill
In any case, Webley's concern was really about getting gun orders. It had been the sole supplier of British gov't revolvers since the 1890s, other than the licensed Webley Mk VI made by Enfield for a few years in the early 1920s. Once the British military accepted the Webley Mk IV as an official alternative standard service revolver to meet wartime needs, and the gov't orders began pouring in, the issue became moot.
Ironically, by all reports the other alternative standard service revolver, the Lend Lease S&W Victory, was preferred to either British revolver by the troops, who would happily trade their Webleys and Enfields to get one. Of course, they hadn't had the benefit of seeing the Indiana Jones movies, much less Captain Jack (of BBC's "Torchwood"), so didn't realize how uncool this made them.
Anyway, I have no dog in this fight -- I own and shoot all three of these revolvers, and find they play very well together!
Bill
The one thing I don't like about French military firearms is that until recently they all seem to have been chambered for calibers no one else wanted to use!
Of course, if you could just find an old Pedersen Device laying around, or an unmodified "US Rifle, Cal. .30, Model of M1903, Mark I" (the 1903 Springfield fitted with the Pedersen Device) hidden is some closet, or one of the "US Rifle, Model of 1917" (the American Enfield) or "US Rifle, Model of 1916" (the Remington Mosin Nagant) prototypes that were fitted with Pedersen Devices, or even a prototype Garand M1 from before John Garand was told to change the caliber from .30 Pedersen to 30-06, then you could have enough weapons in 7.65mm long (aka ".30 Pedersen") to justify the effort of reloading!
And while we're dreaming, imagine how easy it would be to get ammo if the Garand M1 had remained in its original caliber?![[crying]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/006.gif "Crying [crying]")
(The Pedersen Device allowed a standard 1903 Springfield to fire a 40-round clip semi-automatically; the round the Pedersen Device used was adopted by the French as the 7.65 long. The Pedersen Device was in Army inventories from 1918 to 1931, when it was dropped and almost all examples burned to avoid the cost of storage. One of the few remaining Pedersen Devices was auctioned last year for about $60,000.)
The Pedersen Device in a 1903 Springfield, and as carried in webgear:
Of course, if you could just find an old Pedersen Device laying around, or an unmodified "US Rifle, Cal. .30, Model of M1903, Mark I" (the 1903 Springfield fitted with the Pedersen Device) hidden is some closet, or one of the "US Rifle, Model of 1917" (the American Enfield) or "US Rifle, Model of 1916" (the Remington Mosin Nagant) prototypes that were fitted with Pedersen Devices, or even a prototype Garand M1 from before John Garand was told to change the caliber from .30 Pedersen to 30-06, then you could have enough weapons in 7.65mm long (aka ".30 Pedersen") to justify the effort of reloading!
And while we're dreaming, imagine how easy it would be to get ammo if the Garand M1 had remained in its original caliber?
(The Pedersen Device allowed a standard 1903 Springfield to fire a 40-round clip semi-automatically; the round the Pedersen Device used was adopted by the French as the 7.65 long. The Pedersen Device was in Army inventories from 1918 to 1931, when it was dropped and almost all examples burned to avoid the cost of storage. One of the few remaining Pedersen Devices was auctioned last year for about $60,000.)
The Pedersen Device in a 1903 Springfield, and as carried in webgear:
Nice post Gun Shy...I love those French handguns. If only they came in 7.65 or 9x18 instead of the 7.65 long! I don't reload and don't plan to start soon so I don't want to chase an obscure round. I've seen some MAB Ds around just never pulled the trigger (pun intended)
This is, in fact, exactly how I got my Webley! I got it from a guy who traded it from a British officer during WWII. Although he said he had the sneaking suspicion the officer who traded it to him had stolen it from another officer
![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
Of course, there's no other provenance than the guy's word, so the whole story could be made up. But it's a nice non-import marked gun in great condition, so who cares really.Funny you mention Captain Jack, as I've laughed on occasion about it watching Torchwood and Doctor Who. They've used that gun for a lot more folks than just Captain Jack throughout the episodes. It keeps popping up. I figured it's probably not only the same model gun, but the exact same prop
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
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The romanian TT-33 tokarev's are being offered in excellent condition and i can say the one i just received looks awesome. The CZ82 in 9mm mak is another great buy right now.
The Star B in 9mm gets offered once in a while by a wholesaler in the midwest but you have to watch there flyer and move quickly.
The Star B in 9mm gets offered once in a while by a wholesaler in the midwest but you have to watch there flyer and move quickly.
