Submitting NFA 5320.20 Applications - Transporting SBRs Interstate

Tartakovsky

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I submitted a few scanned Form 5320.20s a few weeks ago via [email protected] to transport (registered obviously) SBRs between my primary residence in MA and my secondary residence in NH. Anyone here familiar with the process? Do you typically get an email response notifying you of approval, or just wait for the approval to come via snail mail? Also does the ATF consider the stripped lower an SBR or just the complete weapon in SBR format as an SBR? For example, if I put a 16"+ length barrel upper on my registered SBR lower, is it still considered an "SBR" by the ATF or since it's in a title 1 "rifle" format, OK to transport to/from NH?
 
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Uzi2

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Its not an SBR if there's a 16 inch barrel on it. Even though the receiver is marked and papered, it's only an SBR when the short barrel is attched.

Registering that receiver as an SBR just allows you to put a shorter barrel on "it" exclusively, and the receiver must be marked according to ATF regs.

The receiver is registered as an SBR until you notify the ATF to remove it from the registry.

Once that is done, you can no longer attach a short barrel to that receiver and it becomes a regular rifle with a 16 inch barrel.

The only 5320.20's I've done were done by snail mail prior to my move. I don't know about their new electronic filing if it exists.
 

Tartakovsky

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  • f_5320.20_application_to_transport_interstate_or_to_temporarily_export_certain_national_firear...pdf
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Uzi2

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What is your authority for this statement?
Ownership for twenty plus years and employment by a manufacturer and ATF definition.

What is considered a SBR?
Short-barreled rifle ( SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm, made from a rifle, with a barrel length of less than 16 in (41 cm) or overall length of less than 26 in (66 cm), or a handgun fitted with a buttstock and a barrel of less than 16 inches length.

If it does not have a short barrel attached, it's not an SBR, it's a rifle.

The tax stamp "allows you" to attach a short barrel to "the registered receiver"
listed on your form 1 or form 4. You can freely add a longer barrel to that receiver if desired and it becomes a rifle at that point. There is no law or regulation prohibiting that.

If a gun is taken for analysis and has a 16 inch barrel on it and a shoulder stock, how could it possibly be identified as a short barreled rifle?

When I moved interstate, I moved all my SBRs WITH the short barrels attached. I could have just as easily removed the AR upper and transported that particular gun as a regular rifle as it was no longer in SBR configuration. There was no upside or necessity to do that. The AKs would have been a pain in the ass to do such a mod so I just filled out the 5320.20 with all of the SBRs listed on it and sent it in.

The SBR designation is the current or potential configuration of the gun. If the gun(receiver) is not tax paid/registered, it cannot legally be configured with a stock and a short barrel EVER. But if it is registered, it can be configured with a 16 inch or longer barrel anytime and it is no longer an SBR for the time that the longer barrel resides on that receiver......it becomes a regular rifle.

There is also no regulation preventing anyone from engraving their name and address or their whole life history for that matter on a rifle receiver......but doing so does NOT make those receivers SBRs......until a form 1 is filled out, a $200 tax is paid per receiver, and prints and pictures sent to the ATF for approval and approval received back in the form of a tax stamp with the serial number of each receiver as the cancellation of the stamp.
 
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Tartakovsky

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I called the ATF NFA division and they confirmed they received the 5320.20s and that they were approved on 2/24. They also said that I need to wait until the new physical copies arrive in the mail before transporting my registered SBRs interstate.
 

Asaltweapon

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What is your authority for this statement?
The law.
You will get a snail mail of one of the 2 copies you sent in. I keep a copy with the SBR but the original goes in the tax stamp binder.
They were very quick 2 months ago when I sent in a form 20 for a permanent move north.
 

nstassel

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Despite two definitive responses I'm still waiting for anyone to point to a real source of authority that says that the ATF doesn't care that a registered receiver is being moved interstate as long as it's not attached to a short barrel upper. I have read the exact opposite from other sources but they too don't have a definitive basis for this opinion.

I can see the argument from both sides. I would err on the side of caution absent an official statement that a registered receiver isn't considered an NFA item for transit across state lines depending on its configuration at that moment. That seems to be a very unlikely stance for the agency that brings criminal charges against prior felons who possess stripped lowers.
 

JRT

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Despite two definitive responses I'm still waiting for anyone to point to a real source of authority that says that the ATF doesn't care that a registered receiver is being moved interstate as long as it's not attached to a short barrel upper. I have read the exact opposite from other sources but they too don't have a definitive basis for this opinion.

I can see the argument from both sides. I would err on the side of caution absent an official statement that a registered receiver isn't considered an NFA item for transit across state lines depending on its configuration at that moment. That seems to be a very unlikely stance for the agency that brings criminal charges against prior felons who possess stripped lowers.
You're not going to get the answer you want, and I suspect you know that. What we do have is the definition of an SBR direct from the ATF.

Short Barreled Rifle - Rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

If the barrel attached to your registered lower is greater than 16 inches its not an SBR. Its not an SBR because the ATF definition of an SBR says it not.
 

Asaltweapon

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You're not going to get the answer you want, and I suspect you know that. What we do have is the definition of an SBR direct from the ATF.

Short Barreled Rifle - Rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

If the barrel attached to your registered lower is greater than 16 inches its not an SBR. Its not an SBR because the ATF definition of an SBR says it not.
It don’t get much more clearer.
It’s NOT a SBR if a 16” or longer barrel is attached.
Moving said registered and complete SBR must have a form 20.
 

nstassel

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It don’t get much more clearer.
It’s NOT a SBR if a 16” or longer barrel is attached.
Moving said registered and complete SBR must have a form 20.
And this is why I disagree. The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item depending on whether an upper is attached. You can quote the definition of sbr all you want. By your logic you'd have to pay 200 bucks and file a form one every time you attached a short barrel upper.

I'm not arguing. I see the argument on both sides. I deal in laws that I can cite to when someone gets in trouble. I haven't seen one yet. Until I do I think it's smart to be safe.
 

Uzi2

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And this is why I disagree. The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item depending on whether an upper is attached. You can quote the definition of sbr all you want. By your logic you'd have to pay 200 bucks and file a form one every time you attached a short barrel upper.

I'm not arguing. I see the argument on both sides. I deal in laws that I can cite to when someone gets in trouble. I haven't seen one yet. Until I do I think it's smart to be safe.
There is no law governing your point so you will not find one to cite.

The tax stamp "PERMITS" you to attach a short barrel to THAT registered receiver....at any time.

When you want to remove that receiver from the registry, you notify the ATF by letter and when they receive that letter and remove said receiver from the registry you can no longer attach a short barrel to it.

People remove SBRs from the registry all the time so they can sell that receiver in the configuration as a rifle. That receiver will still have the previous maker's info engraved but it has lost its NFA status because it was removed from the registry by the previous owner.

There is no prohibition on attaching a 16+ inch barrel to THAT registered receiver and THAT registered receiver is only an SBR when the short barrel is attached, otherwise it is just a rifle in that configuration.

The 5320.20 is to move a registered receiver SBR across state lines WITH the short barrel attached.
.....not in the configuration of a 16+ length barrel.

It is not like a machinegun, which is ALWAYS a machinegun no matter how it is configured.
 

JRT

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And this is why I disagree. The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item depending on whether an upper is attached. You can quote the definition of sbr all you want. By your logic you'd have to pay 200 bucks and file a form one every time you attached a short barrel upper.

I'm not arguing. I see the argument on both sides. I deal in laws that I can cite to when someone gets in trouble. I haven't seen one yet. Until I do I think it's smart to be safe.
Directly from the NFA handbook.

Section 2.5 answers your original question and addresses the new comments in paragraph one above.

2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.
Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel. Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA. NOTE: an acceptable method for permanently installing a barrel extension is by gas or electric steel seam welding or the use of high temperature silver solder having a flow point of 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.
 

JRT

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42!

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But wait.....

What if you are crossing state lines with an SBR that you swapped to a long barrel and you have an AR pistol with you. It's not the barrel you removed, and it's on a legit pistol, but the upper could be put on the SBR receiver without tools. Are you still legal? [devil][devil]
 

JRT

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But wait.....

What if you are crossing state lines with an SBR that you swapped to a long barrel and you have an AR pistol with you. It's not the barrel you removed, and it's on a legit pistol, but the upper could be put on the SBR receiver without tools. Are you still legal? [devil][devil]
You die. Ded
 

Uzi2

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But wait.....

What if you are crossing state lines with an SBR that you swapped to a long barrel and you have an AR pistol with you. It's not the barrel you removed, and it's on a legit pistol, but the upper could be put on the SBR receiver without tools. Are you still legal? [devil][devil]

Write the ATF and find out and report back with your findings.

My opinion would be no and you'd probably be jammed up on it given an opportunity.....but I'm not the arbiter of suck things.

If it could be proven that you did so with intent to skirt the regulations in place, I'm sure a vacancy could be found for you in a federal cell somewhere. It's really all pretty much about intent.

I'd predict that if you had direct access to a short barrel that could be pinned onto the SBR lower with the longer barrel you'd be screwed. The ATF is a lot of things, but they are not stupid when it comes to bringing charges against the individual if they have the slightest evidence to back their claim.
 
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Asaltweapon

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And this is why I disagree. The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item depending on whether an upper is attached. You can quote the definition of sbr all you want. By your logic you'd have to pay 200 bucks and file a form one every time you attached a short barrel upper.

I'm not arguing. I see the argument on both sides. I deal in laws that I can cite to when someone gets in trouble. I haven't seen one yet. Until I do I think it's smart to be safe.
You’re barking at a tree stump.

Think simple. This ain’t lawyers arguing over crap for a judge to decide. It’s just plain black and effin white.
 

nstassel

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You’re barking at a tree stump.

Think simple. This ain’t lawyers arguing over crap for a judge to decide. It’s just plain black and effin white.
The OP asked a serious question. To your point it IS lawyers arguing over crap to a judge. In my world, "because Assaultweapon on NES said so Judge" doesn't keep people out of jail or their LTCs intact. I have no idea why it might bother you that I want something more persuasive than your opinion. As it turns out there was an authority that we can all rely on thanks to Uzi2.
 
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JRT

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The OP asked a serious question. To your point it IS lawyers arguing over crap to a judge. In my world, "because Assaultweapon on NES said so Judge" doesn't keep people out of jail or their LTCs intact. I have no idea why it might bother you that I want something more persuasive than your opinion. As it turns out their was an authority that we can all rely on thanks to Uzi2.
Nah, you were just wrong, it was you who came into the thread with opinions. Here is one of your opinions,

The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item depending on whether an upper is attached.

@Asaltweapon was not giving an opinion, he was correct. You wanted him to show you the proof, proof which was easily found in of all things a document published by the ATF called the NFA Handbook.
 

nstassel

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Nah, you were just wrong, it was you who came into the thread with opinions. Here is one of your opinions,

The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item depending on whether an upper is attached.

@Asaltweapon was not giving an opinion, he was correct. You wanted him to show you the proof, proof which was easily found in of all things a document published by the ATF called the NFA Handbook.
The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item until it is removed from the registry. That is a fact. Assaultweapon was correct but without any authority it's not very useful to me.
 

Asaltweapon

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The receiver does not lose its character as an nfa item until it is removed from the registry. That is a fact. Assaultweapon was correct but without any authority it's not very useful to me.
You’re questioning my authority?? 😂

Tell me this. If your lower is not attached to a 10” upper is it still a SBR or is it something else?
 

Tartakovsky

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You’re questioning my authority?? 😂

Tell me this. If your lower is not attached to a 10” upper is it still a SBR or is it something else?
The ATF says in the last paragraph of the letter that possession of the SBR upper either in transport or across state lines in conjunction with possession of the registered SBR lower is not allowed, regardless of whether your registered lower that you are transporting is stripped or in title 1 rifle configuration. The ATF contradicts itself by saying that the lower itself is not an SBR or if attached to an upper with a barrel length greater than 16” is not an SBR BUT the ATF also states that it doesn’t matter if it’s an SBR or not if you also simultaneously possess the SBR upper. They’re obviously looking at intent here. Just like constructive possession is not allowed during form 1 waiting process, even though you haven’t assembled anything yet.
 
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JRT

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The ATF says in the last paragraph of the letter that possession of the SBR upper either in transport or across state lines in conjunction of possession of the lower is not allowed, regardless of whether your registered lower that you are transporting is stripped or in title 1 rifle configuration. The ATF contradicts itself by saying that the lower itself is not an SBR or if attached to an upper with a barrel length greater than 16” and also states that it doesn’t matter if it’s an SBR or not if you also simultaneously possess the SBR upper. They’re obviously looking at intent here. Just like constructive possession is not allowed during form 1 waiting process, even though you haven’t assembled anything yet.
That particular letter is very powerful and I’m sure would be helpful in court. You have to be careful with ATF letters, they are not law and there are many that contradict each other.
 

Asaltweapon

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The ATF says in the last paragraph of the letter that possession of the SBR upper either in transport or across state lines in conjunction of possession of the lower is not allowed, regardless of whether your registered lower that you are transporting is stripped or in title 1 rifle configuration. The ATF contradicts itself by saying that the lower itself is not an SBR or if attached to an upper with a barrel length greater than 16” and also states that it doesn’t matter if it’s an SBR or not if you also simultaneously possess the SBR upper. They’re obviously looking at intent here. Just like constructive possession is not allowed during form 1 waiting process, even though you haven’t assembled anything yet.
I know.
When I bought my AR pistol I did so in 2 transactions. The upper was never placed on the lower and they were not transported together in MA.
Same thing with my SBR. Lower built and waited for the approval before I bought the upper.
 
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