Students Questions slow Reponse to Gunman in Gun Free Zone

[MaineCWPtraining]

Sam Hengel held his socal studies class hostage for hours before school officials knew about it.

MARINETTE, Wis. - For about two hours, no one at Marinette High School knew Sam Hengel was holding his social studies class hostage with two pistols and a bag stuffed with a pair of knives and more than 200 rounds of spare ammunition.

Although only Hengel was harmed in the standoff, fatally shooting himself as police stormed the room, students questioned the lag time in the response and whether security should be upgraded as they returned to class Wednesday after a day off.

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[Twigg]

...students questioned the lag time in the response...

Well at least they learned the cops arent going to be able to protect them.

 

[EddieCoyle]

... only Hengel was harmed in the standoff, fatally shooting himself as police stormed the room...

This is what happens in every school standoff:

1. Bad guy brings a gun into a gun-free zone because he's...well... a bad guy.
2. Bad guy proceeds to commit mayhem.
3. Someone else shows up with a gun.
4. Bad guy offs himself. Every time.

This is the best argument against gun-free zones, and the moonbats won't admit the reality.

 

[lupis42]

This is the best argument against gun-free zones, and the moonbats won't admit the reality.

Simply compare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_tech_shooting
with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_school_of_law_shooting

Apparently, when it's not a gun free zone, it's much harder to go on a rampage.

 

[RI_John]

This is what happens in every school standoff:

1. Bad guy brings a gun into a gun-free zone because he's...well... a bad guy.
2. Bad guy proceeds to commit mayhem.
3. Someone else shows up with a gun.
4. Bad guy offs himself. Every time.

This is the best argument against gun-free zones, and the moonbats won't admit the reality.

you forgot:

1.5 Absolutely retarded, nonsensical policy dictates that all the unarmed students are LOCKED INSIDE with armed bad guy

 

[cekim]

This is what happens in every school standoff:

1. Bad guy brings a gun into a gun-free zone because he's...well... a bad guy.
2. Bad guy proceeds to commit mayhem.
3. Someone else shows up with a gun.
4. Bad guy offs himself. Every time.

This is the best argument against gun-free zones, and the moonbats won't admit the reality.

Yes, yes and yes - this is why they've generally changed policy on responding to these things with sending anyone who can get in ASAP.

I am with you though - Teachers should be offered a bonus to carry and again if they get some situation specific training. Just like any job enhancing training...

No one should be forced to carry, but certainly no one should be stopped...

 

[Twigg]

No one should be forced to carry, but certainly no one should be stopped...

There you go again with than "common sense" crazy talk.

 

[drgrant]

Well at least they learned the cops arent going to be able to protect them.

Most will still not put 2+2 together. Maybe the kids will, the parents... will just keep bleating for "the authorities" to protect them, which means TSA scanner checkpoints at school...

-Mike

 

[cekim]

Most will still not put 2+2 together. Maybe the kids will, the parents... will just keep bleating for "the authorities" to protect them, which means TSA scanner checkpoints at school...

Groan... Yes...

They are still asking why they didn't show up sooner rather than "what could we and our teachers have done to stop this...."

The dark-side of the force is strong and obscures the truth...

 

[cb1]

3. Someone else shows up with a gun.
4. Bad guy offs himself. Every time.

I don't understand why people don't point this out more often. Gun free zones are targeted specifically because they're gun free zones. The scum bag wants to kill (usually) as many people as possible before the cops get there. If these people wanted to face down other armed individuals, mass shootings would take place inside police stations. But they don't. Is there a statistic that shows how many mass shootings take place in gun free zones vs those that do not?

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

drgrant

TSA scanner checkpoints at school..

Scanners made in India

 

[glockshooter]

Yeah the policy at my school in Boston is to lock down the campus and keep everyone in rooms. Keep in mind every building is connected inside with catwalks ect.. Seems like a great plan. All the students can wait to shot!

 

[Twigg]

Most will still not put 2+2 together.

[sad2] True.

 

[wahsben]

Yeah the policy at my school in Boston is to lock down the campus and keep everyone in rooms. Keep in mind every building is connected inside with catwalks ect.. Seems like a great plan. All the students can wait to shot!

It makes one think that maybe the powers that be want a high body count so they can use it as an excuse to push for more control over the masses in the name of safety and sadly to many fall for the BS.

 

[RI_John]

It makes one think that maybe the powers that be want a high body count so they can use it as an excuse to push for more control over the masses in the name of safety and sadly to many fall for the BS.

I doubt it's anything that sinister. It's more of the Martha Coakley "we discourage self-help" mindset of "let's all hide under our desks until the policemen SAVE us!" The exact same mindset of pre-9/11 air travelers. I believe schools need the same mentality of post-9/11 air travelers, which is "We're on our own to stop this douchebag, so let's all hit him fast and hard while we're still breathing"

 

[wacky_doug]

You know what the biggest disconnect is about "gun free zones"? It's not "we discourage self-help" or "the police will save us". It's more fundamental than that: The unarmed public does not trust law-abiding armed citizens. It's that simple. We get mentally lumped in with gun toting bad guys. That mental comparison may not be overt, and sometimes it's not even a conscious connection. But this in a nutshell is the crux of the issue, and it's why it's so difficult to talk to non-gun owners.

EC's 4 steps in a public shootings are totally right. But without the ability to trust armed citizens, there's no point in trying to explain the pattern, because the people who create gun free zones don't agree with our solution.

 

[wahsben]

I doubt it's anything that sinister. It's more of the Martha Coakley "we discourage self-help" mindset of "let's all hide under our desks until the policemen SAVE us!" The exact same mindset of pre-9/11 air travelers. I believe schools need the same mentality of post-9/11 air travelers, which is "We're on our own to stop this douchebag, so let's all hit him fast and hard while we're still breathing"

Maybe originally but more than enough time has gone by and more than enough evidence has accumulated to show that this mentality is wrong so to continue with it means they are truly ignorant or they are doing it intentionally. I tend to think it is a combination of both.

 

[Viking Kitten]

I don't understand why people don't point this out more often. Gun free zones are targeted specifically because they're gun free zones. The scum bag wants to kill (usually) as many people as possible before the cops get there. If these people wanted to face down other armed individuals, mass shootings would take place inside police stations. But they don't. Is there a statistic that shows how many mass shootings take place in gun free zones vs those that do not?

I used this same line of thought with a friend who doesn't understand why anyone would want to carry a firearm. I could almost see the lightbulb going off over his head as he realized he'd never thought about it. Didn't change his mind, but we agreed to disagree on the topic.

 

[ARV]

columbine happened just before I started highschool. The way our building was set up when it was built, it had an "open" floor plan. no walls between clasrooms except Lab areas. Then they came back and added them when they realised that didnt work. We're talking the thinnest drywall they could use, and lightweight metal studs to hold it up. Close a door too hard and the walls would rattle. Their "bright idea" was if something happened, the teachers would lock the doors, and then all the studens would crowd into the corner that was hardest to see from the two doors that went into every room. That plan was LOADED with fail. I pointed it out to one teacher who I knew owned guns, but wasnt a true "gun guy" (he would tell us stories of offing the critters that raided his flower garden, with his 12 ga.) . He was explained the new policy to us. I went to him after class and said something like "so...put all the targets in one small area, so he can shoot through the wall and be guaranteed to his someone?" he thought for a minute, and said something like..."guess they hope the person wouldnt think of that" and frowned. If that had ever gone down, no teacher or administrator would have stopped me getting out of the building. Meanwhile, the office had bullet proof glass, walls etc. yup, glad THEY'RE special.

 

[Jose]

 

[Jose]

You know what the biggest disconnect is about "gun free zones"? It's not "we discourage self-help" or "the police will save us". It's more fundamental than that: The unarmed public does not trust law-abiding armed citizens. It's that simple. We get mentally lumped in with gun toting bad guys. That mental comparison may not be overt, and sometimes it's not even a conscious connection. But this in a nutshell is the crux of the issue, and it's why it's so difficult to talk to non-gun owners.

EC's 4 steps in a public shootings are totally right. But without the ability to trust armed citizens, there's no point in trying to explain the pattern, because the people who create gun free zones don't agree with our solution.

I don't give a shit what the unarmed public or gun-free zone creators think about citizens who arm themselves.

They are free to die to prove their point. I will do what I will do with no consideration to what they want or trust.

I carry a handgun to defend myself and mine from criminal violence. Others will be screwed if they think I'm going to take the figurative bullet for them.

 

[wacky_doug]

I don't give a shit what the unarmed public or gun-free zone creators think about citizens who arm themselves.

They are free to die to prove their point. I will do what I will do with no consideration to what they want or trust.

I carry a handgun to defend myself and mine from criminal violence. Others will be screwed if they think I'm going to take the figurative bullet for them.

Right. As I said, there's no point in trying to explain the lack of logic in their thinking, because they don't trust us.

That said, I enjoy taking people who are anti-gun or gun-curious to the range, teaching them to shoot, and helping them get their LTC's. This is the only method I know alters a person's irrational fears.

 

[DCunniff]

Aside from his being young, nobody but law enforcement can open carry within 1000 feet of a school zone. Applies up to high school. Can do it on a college, but not a government college (separate statute). In a vehicle, you can see it can be in a case and unloaded. This is 1000 feet from their boundary.

If you are walking in WI with open carry, you have to know where the schools are! You cannot conceal carry in WI, so if you are open carrying you must figure out where the schools are and detour around them or turn around! You cannot empty and still open carry within the zone while walking.

Here is the WI statute.

• 948.605 - No firearms within 1000’ of a
school (grade 1 - 12) premises, unless
encased and unloaded. If you
KNOWINGLY carry in a school zone its a
felony. (unless on private property, which
includes parking lots of businesses) IF YOU
ARE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY, YOU
MAY CARRY IN A SCHOOL ZONE.