Straw Purchase??? Me buying a gun, not for me... 4 scenarios

Reptile

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1. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to another guy who I know wants it? On eFA10. Can I do this 4 times a year?

2. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to a FFL? Can this be done 4 times a year?

3. If a FFL knows a guy who has a friend selling a gun, can the FFL give the guy the money with the intent of the guy to buy the friends gun AND then sell it to the FFL? (Guy acting as middleman between original owner and FFL)

4. If a FFL sees a gun on the classifieds and buys it with the intent to sell to a known customer who wants that sort of gun?

The state seems to be cracking down on all maters of gun sales and is stretching the intent of straw purchase laws - if not the letter of the law.

It seems to me that when a FFL is involved, it is less of a straw purchase.

What say the hive?
 

hillman

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Buying, and then selling to someone else. That's what all of your scenarios are. Purchase legally, sell legally. Are you posting your "intentions" all over for people to see?
 

Cuz

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My uneducated guess would be that #3 might be the shady one because you were given money up front to buy the gun.
People buy stuff all the time as an investment with the intention of flipping it for profit. Guns should be no different. As long as the guns are bought and then sold legally there should be no issues.
 

Nick Leduc

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On a technical side of thing, the way 1 & 2 are written, sounds like the goal would be for profit. In the eyes of the law, would require an FFL. Not saying it isn't done all the time,but phrasing is everything. Proving your intentions is a tough one.

Any self respecting FFL wouldn't go for scenario #3. The FFL wouldn't have any reason to not just purchase direct from seller.

And scenario #4 is legit. Thats the definition of an FFL. Buying and selling. Specifically to make $.

Seems like your question is geared more towards FFL dos/don't vs straw purchase issues.
 

Reptile

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On a technical side of thing, the way 1 & 2 are written, sounds like the goal would be for profit. In the eyes of the law, would require an FFL. Not saying it isn't done all the time,but phrasing is everything. Proving your intentions is a tough one.

Any self respecting FFL wouldn't go for scenario #3. The FFL wouldn't have any reason to not just purchase direct from seller.

And scenario #4 is legit. Thats the definition of an FFL. Buying and selling. Specifically to make $.

Seems like your question is geared more towards FFL dos/don't vs straw purchase issues.
In scenario 3, the middle man wants to make a profit.

He knows a FFL who wants the gun.

If he told the original owner to send the gun to the FFL, he would have cut himself out of his finders fee.

I guess the FFL won’t need to front any money at all until the gun is in the hands of the middle man.

In that case, he’s just paying straight up for it.

As far as I know, the ATF and state don’t care if you only do this 4 times a year.

Any more then you are in trouble for illegally selling guns as a business.
 

namedpipes

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1. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to another guy who I know wants it? On eFA10. Can I do this 4 times a year?

2. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to a FFL? Can this be done 4 times a year?

3. If a FFL knows a guy who has a friend selling a gun, can the FFL give the guy the money with the intent of the guy to buy the friends gun AND then sell it to the FFL? (Guy acting as middleman between original owner and FFL)

4. If a FFL sees a gun on the classifieds and buys it with the intent to sell to a known customer who wants that sort of gun?

The state seems to be cracking down on all maters of gun sales and is stretching the intent of straw purchase laws - if not the letter of the law.

It seems to me that when a FFL is involved, it is less of a straw purchase.

What say the hive?

An FFL buys and sells as they please. Just forget about the straw stuff.

It's a rare purchase an FFL makes that ISN'T for someone else

That's from the FFLPOV. The customer could certainly be making a straw purchase
 

Nick Leduc

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In scenario 3, the middle man wants to make a profit.

He knows a FFL who wants the gun.

If he told the original owner to send the gun to the FFL, he would have cut himself out of his finders fee.

I guess the FFL won’t need to front any money at all until the gun is in the hands of the middle man.

In that case, he’s just paying straight up for it.

As far as I know, the ATF and state don’t care if you only do this 4 times a year.

Any more then you are in trouble for illegally selling guns as a business.
Either way, go back to the definition of straw purchase. Which is to purchasing a firearm for someone else to avoid a background check. If you read a case where people are charged with straw purchases, 4473s are used as evidence as to prove intent. When the person checks yes for the question "are you the actual buyer".
 

LuvDog

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My take:

1. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to another guy who I know wants it? On eFA10. Can I do this 4 times a year?
Yes - as long as everyone is properly licensed and the eFA10s are filed.

2. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to a FFL? Can this be done 4 times a year?
Yes, sort of, but why? Why wouldn't the FFL just buy it from the original seller? You can sell as many guns as you want to an FFL in a year, there is no limit.

3. If a FFL knows a guy who has a friend selling a gun, can the FFL give the guy the money with the intent of the guy to buy the friends gun AND then sell it to the FFL? (Guy acting as middleman between original owner and FFL).
I'd avoid this one, since giving someone money to buy a gun is a no no technically. But again, why? Why wouldn't the FFL just work directly with the seller?

4. If a FFL sees a gun on the classifieds and buys it with the intent to sell to a known customer who wants that sort of gun?
Yes. This is no different then FFLs taking in trade ins and selling them. I've seen emails lately from a lot of FFLs looking to buy used guns to sell since their supply chain is running dry.
 

Bladerunner

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Deepcover undercover AT-EF agent here.

I have you're IP address.

Any of your future buys and sells is mines!!
 

Dennis in MA

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1. Good luck them proving it. I guess your jam-ed-ness would depend on teh time between sale A and Sale B.

2. Ditto. Stupid but ditto. And you "could" do it 50 times a year because you are selling to an FFL. But at 50, you might be a dealer. Hell, at 5 you might be a dealer. But it's not illegal as written. Maybe you're just fickle.

3. But why, tho???

4. Uhhhh, isn't that the point of an FFL - to make money by exchanging money for guns and vice versa???
 

Reptile

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My take:

1. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to another guy who I know wants it? On eFA10. Can I do this 4 times a year?
Yes - as long as everyone is properly licensed and the eFA10s are filed.

2. If I know a guy selling a gun, can I buy it with the intention of flipping it to a FFL? Can this be done 4 times a year?
Yes, sort of, but why? Why wouldn't the FFL just buy it from the original seller? You can sell as many guns as you want to an FFL in a year, there is no limit.

3. If a FFL knows a guy who has a friend selling a gun, can the FFL give the guy the money with the intent of the guy to buy the friends gun AND then sell it to the FFL? (Guy acting as middleman between original owner and FFL).
I'd avoid this one, since giving someone money to buy a gun is a no no technically. But again, why? Why wouldn't the FFL just work directly with the seller?

4. If a FFL sees a gun on the classifieds and buys it with the intent to sell to a known customer who wants that sort of gun?
Yes. This is no different then FFLs taking in trade ins and selling them. I've seen emails lately from a lot of FFLs looking to buy used guns to sell since their supply chain is running dry.
1. Good luck them proving it. I guess your jam-ed-ness would depend on teh time between sale A and Sale B.

2. Ditto. Stupid but ditto. And you "could" do it 50 times a year because you are selling to an FFL. But at 50, you might be a dealer. Hell, at 5 you might be a dealer. But it's not illegal as written. Maybe you're just fickle.

3. But why, tho???

4. Uhhhh, isn't that the point of an FFL - to make money by exchanging money for guns and vice versa???

See post #10.

The middle man wants to go between the original owner and FFL to make a profit.

I suppose he could ask for a finders fee for the referral.

There are people in free states looking out for pre 94 ARs in their local gun shops.
 

richc

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@Reptile, in another post on Weird Stuff on Amazon you posted a link to a 55 gallon drum of lube you may or may not have ordered. Take that with you to jail...


 
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LuvDog

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For #2 and #3... How cheap is the person selling the gun? It has to be close to free or less than half of market value, because I don't know of many FFLs that are giving resale/market value for guns.
 

Dennis in MA

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See post #10.

The middle man wants to go between the original owner and FFL to make a profit.

I suppose he could ask for a finders fee for the referral.

There are people in free states looking out for pre 94 ARs in their local gun shops.


Hole-up. A NON MA RESIDENT buys a gun (from an individual - which there is NO paperwork or an FFL - which there is minimal paperwork) with the intent on selling it to a MA resident via MA FFL or directly to a mASS FFL. Besides getting jammed up for being an unlicensed dealer, there is NO problem. I actually had a convo about this with an ATF agent years ago. It's open to interpretation. Do it 5-10x - probably nothing. But at some point, you might get pulled in. Maybe. If they can trace it. Which they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

If I lived in an AO that had THAT many pre-ban AR's, I'd be in hog heaven. LOL. But odds are they won't show up much. Most of the pre-bans out there have already migrated to the not-so-free states.

Are these people also looking to charge 3x as much as normal for these pre-ban items???? [rofl]
 

namedpipes

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In scenario 3, the middle man wants to make a profit.

He knows a FFL who wants the gun.

If he told the original owner to send the gun to the FFL, he would have cut himself out of his finders fee.

I guess the FFL won’t need to front any money at all until the gun is in the hands of the middle man.

In that case, he’s just paying straight up for it.

As far as I know, the ATF and state don’t care if you only do this 4 times a year.

Any more then you are in trouble for illegally selling guns as a business.

Why not simply offer that middleman a finders fee rather than them purchasing it and reselling it?

The FFL is golden either way. Middleman "could" be a little shaky depending on the mood of LE that comes across it.

However, individuals buy and sell all the time because they think they'll like a gun and then change their mind.

Either way, the only person using up one of their 4 transactions is the orifnal owner. Middleman is selling to an FFL and that does not count.

Now if you meant middle man is purchasing the gun with the original sin of selling it to another individual (not an FFL) he's guilty as sin and will need some of that lube you posted about in the other thread.
 

ColdDayInHell

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