Strange Incident at MA Gun Club on 1/2/2021

I want to begin by saying that I don't think I would have called the cops. I probably just would have said "I don't have time now, but if you call the club main number, they can help you," and walked away.

But with that said, I have a lot of sympathy for the club members who thought the situation was weird, and felt they needed to tell someone.

Let me give a little context. I am a basic pistol instructor. I do not teach combat or defensive tactics, and I openly tell people I am not a specialist in those areas. But I do sometimes give "defensive" advice, which is really just common sense. And one important piece of that guidance is telling people that if a person or situation seems sketchy, then act immediately. Do something to improve your situation, right away, and usually that means just leave.

The important point is that reacting to things that make you nervous is the most basic aspect of situational awareness. Situational awareness is not just keeping your head on a swivel, it is also learning to respond to your subconscious awareness that is trying to protect you.

I tell people that the most important thing is, do not just stand there on the X and think about whether your instincts are correct. Take some action, and then consider later whether your instincts were good. And if the instincts were not good, we can review later how to improve them.

When I tell people about really having this type of situational awareness, and using it, they often feel constricted by social pressure. They say "I'll look stupid, or cowardly, or socially awkward." Well, from now on I'll add, "maybe there will be an NES thead where dozens of people post to say you are an idiot, but you should still trust your judgement, and you should do it quickly."
 
Eh the problem lies in the “agent in black truck” intended it for “the club” if those 2 members didnt get scared it would have been a donation to 2 members,
O well , I remember a few years back a “federal employee” was getting “rotated” , his words. He said he cant take it with him and dump about 800 rounds of assorted ammo on the table
 
LOL, only in Massachusetts. Strange incident? Yeah, as soon as the fudds asked the good Samaritan for ID. I won't name the agency because it's a secret but many years ago I was given a pile of .38 +P when said agency switched to .357 Sig.
 
Sometimes an Old Timer finds a couple of old boxes of ammo, but never renewed his "FID for Life" and doesn't shoot anymore.
Could you fault him for throwing those boxes of shotshells in the cab of his pickup truck, driving over to the Gun Club and asking a couple of fellas on the trap range
if they "Could use a couple of boxes of shells?"

Same thing... almost.


Which reminds me:
We really should push for a "Lifetime FID Card" again in this State...
 
Fed LE agencies that have rented our club ranges have been pretty generous over the years. If it was my club, it wouldn’t surprise me that another LE agency suggested donating it to us.
We also have plenty of Fudds that would have done what the OP described too. Ugh.
 
So strange. Did he think he was buying his way into a Hell's Angels level organization with his offer of ammo to win over your good graces?

Maybe he watched Donnie Brasco and The Departed a few too many times and came to the conclusion that his big career sting was a gun club in MA.....
 
So strange. Did he think he was buying his way into a Hell's Angels level organization with his offer of ammo to win over your good graces?

Maybe he watched Donnie Brasco and The Departed a few too many times and came to the conclusion that his big career sting was a gun club in MA.....
LoathsomeSillyBream-small.gif
 
He thought he did. He went to what he thought was a "Gun Club," but it turned out to be a collection of pearl-clutching FUDDs. Silly him.

You just don't quit, do you Scotty?

Anyway, since then, the rumor mill was shut down. It was learned since my OP that the fed was dimed out by someone that said he was trying to sell the ammo. This happened before he approached the police or the gun club. It's also the reason why the fed said that he could lose his job as noted in the OP. This incident of possibly trying to sell the ammo is now under special investigation by his employer.
 
You just don't quit, do you Scotty?

Anyway, since then, the rumor mill was shut down. It was learned since my OP that the fed was dimed out by someone that said he was trying to sell the ammo. This happened before he approached the police or the gun club. It's also the reason why the fed said that he could lose his job as noted in the OP. This incident of possibly trying to sell the ammo is now under special investigation by his employer.
I guess not, Glocky.
 
Sure sounds like it was a pretty awkward encounter. Wtf gives away 6 cases of ammo, any day of any year, never mind these days.

Claims to be a Fed AND possibly losing his job (stealing ammo on the way out the door as a FU?) No ID on him? I’d be weirded out by it too. If it sounds to good to be true...

And I would have thought about all of those things while holding him at gunpoint and making him open each case and shake it all out on the deck to check for any signs of explosives, tracking devices or tampering.

I would then if clear stand him up, dust him off, shake his hand and ask him to help me load it into my vehicle while offering him a cup of coffee. Some things are worth going the extra mile for. lol

You know, if you participated in the Baseless Lies thread, that encounter would be, shall we say, revised a bit. [rofl]
 
Eh the problem lies in the “agent in black truck” intended it for “the club” if those 2 members didnt get scared it would have been a donation to 2 members,
O well , I remember a few years back a “federal employee” was getting “rotated” , his words. He said he cant take it with him and dump about 800 rounds of assorted ammo on the table
I have a friend who is a Fed agent and he was recently transferred to DC. The movers wouldn't touch the ammo, so he originally asked me to hold it for him until he traveled back up to this area to pick it up. Then his landlord asked him to vacate the house immediately and he didn't have time to get it to me. I forget what he did with it, but yes, if someone is being moved, ammo is an issue. And one thing you learn in gov't is that you never give back anything . . . money in your budget or items provided that are expendable.
 
Still not clear if these were new boxed rounds, or reloads. If reloads, I'd have the guy fire off some random ones for you. If new, just shoot them all that day and be done with it.
 
free is basically the definition of entrapment
Entrapment is very specific to putting an individual under duress to commit a crime.

 
Entrapment is very specific to putting an individual under duress to commit a crime.


Yes like offering them free or overly cheap things that would never normally happen, leaving a new mazaradi in someones driveway with the keys in it, a $10 kilo of illegal drugs, a hot girl who dances with you in a club grabbing at your junk then offers you a BJ if you buy her a drink - all potentially prompt someone to break the law under unreal circumstances, when the person would arguably never commit such acts in the real world (ie if the mazaradi was parked in the neighbors driveway, if the drugs were $4000, if the girl was just standing on a corner and went "heyyyy handsome").
 
Here is a solution tell the guy to leave the ammo in the club house with a free sign on it. After he leaves divvy it up and get out of there for the day. Problem solved. I still have a hard time believing this was on the level. Free ammo during a civil war? From a fed? We need a skinflint thread with a money saved vs time in jail poll.
 
Yes like offering them free or overly cheap things that would never normally happen, leaving a new mazaradi in someones driveway with the keys in it, a $10 kilo of illegal drugs, a hot girl who dances with you in a club grabbing at your junk then offers you a BJ if you buy her a drink - all potentially prompt someone to break the law under unreal circumstances, when the person would arguably never commit such acts in the real world (
None of that constitutes "harassment or coercion by a government official" it constitutes opportunity, which: "An opportunity is considered very different from entrapment and involves merely the temptation to violate the law, not being forced to do so".

Sting operations don't offer free shit because it's highly suspect and makes you glow like the sun.
 
The club members involved wouldn't have known it was legal ammo. It could have been stolen for all they knew.
This is exactly what is meant by afraid of your own shadow. What is "legal ammo". You never know something isn't stolen whenever you buy something on
1) Craigslist
2) ebay
3) gunbroker

you get my point. If you have a LTC in MA, its legal ammo.

If you are in a free state, if you are over 18 or 21 and are not a prohibited person, its legal ammo.
 
This is exactly what is meant by afraid of your own shadow. What is "legal ammo". You never know something isn't stolen whenever you buy something on
1) Craigslist
2) ebay
3) gunbroker

you get my point. If you have a LTC in MA, its legal ammo.

If you are in a free state, if you are over 18 or 21 and are not a prohibited person, its legal ammo.
If they are looking for a patsy and you take the bait you get the ride. Was it legal to shoot Randy Weavers family? Muh Crapstitution won't save you.
 
None of that constitutes "harassment or coercion by a government official" it constitutes opportunity, which: "An opportunity is considered very different from entrapment and involves merely the temptation to violate the law, not being forced to do so".

Sting operations don't offer free shit because it's highly suspect and makes you glow like the sun.

Definitely coercion but if you read the entire link you are posting it goes further. Here is another quote from Wikipedia..


I understand entrapment is thrown around poorly a lot, but both tests in the examples I gave would indicate entrapment. Similarly if the otherwise legal ammo was somehow "tainted" due to the source, it would very clearly fall under entrapment (not only did they have no intent of breaking the law getting up that morning, they were surprised by the opportunity, which on face value appeared perfectly legal).

"In the United States, two competing tests exist for determining whether entrapment has taken place, known as the "subjective" and "objective" tests.[20]

  • The "subjective" test looks at the defendant's state of mind; entrapment can be claimed if the defendant had no "predisposition" to commit the crime.
  • The "objective" test looks instead at the government's conduct; entrapment occurs when the actions of government officers would usually have caused a normally law-abiding person to commit a crime.
Contrary to popular belief, the United States does not require police officers to identify themselves as police in the case of a sting or other undercover work, and police officers may lie when engaged in such work.[21] The law of entrapment instead focuses on whether people were enticed to commit crimes they would not have otherwise considered in the normal course of events.[1"
 
Definitely coercion but if you read the entire link you are posting it goes further. Here is another quote from Wikipedia..


I understand entrapment is thrown around poorly a lot, but both tests in the examples I gave would indicate entrapment. Similarly if the otherwise legal ammo was somehow "tainted" due to the source, it would very clearly fall under entrapment (not only did they have no intent of breaking the law getting up that morning, they were surprised by the opportunity, which on face value appeared perfectly legal).

"In the United States, two competing tests exist for determining whether entrapment has taken place, known as the "subjective" and "objective" tests.[20]

  • The "subjective" test looks at the defendant's state of mind; entrapment can be claimed if the defendant had no "predisposition" to commit the crime.
  • The "objective" test looks instead at the government's conduct; entrapment occurs when the actions of government officers would usually have caused a normally law-abiding person to commit a crime.
Contrary to popular belief, the United States does not require police officers to identify themselves as police in the case of a sting or other undercover work, and police officers may lie when engaged in such work.[21] The law of entrapment instead focuses on whether people were enticed to commit crimes they would not have otherwise considered in the normal course of events.[1"
Good info, though I wasn't arguing that OP was in a position of a sting but refuting that free=entrapment. I don't think your except convinces me I'm wrong in that regard but I'm not a lawyer/leo. If you ask a person on the street with no drug history "do you want some meth?" I don't see how it fails either test or if it does id need case examples or SME corroboration.
 
Soooo, this generous gentleman is driving around Ma with cases of ammo....and no FID card?????? Sounds normal. And, wasn't there another thread (for those that haven't blocked Reptile, about someone calling the cops when an ATF agent showed up at their house, and the cops arresting them? I guess the ATF agent should have proffered some ammo?
 
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