Storage of out-of state owned firearms

[BillO]

My brother has young children in his home in Florida, and he's asked me (after his wife asked him) to store his three .38's for "a few years or so". Is it legal for me to do this? Can I store/shoot/carry them while in my care?

 

[LoginName]

It doesn't sound legal, but I'm not 100% certain (I assume the guns are currently in FL).

At the very least they'd have to be registered on an FA-10.

 

[Cross-X]

My brother has young children in his home in Florida, and he's asked me (after his wife asked him) to store his three .38's for "a few years or so". Is it legal for me to do this? Can I store/shoot/carry them while in my care?

Sure you can store them, assuming that:

You have the necessary valid LTC,

You store them in accord with MA law, and

The guns remain his, not yours.

There is absolutely no need to file an FA-10 if all you are doing is storing the guns for him, and he is neither giving nor selling them to you.




.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thank you Darius!!

If the OP does a search here, you will see this answer given a number of times. And it gets asked, over and over again.

 

[Cross-X]

Thank you Darius!!

My pleasure. Some old myths must be killed every time one runs across them.

 

[KMaurer]

As has been mentioned previously, if you've to a relative living our of state whom you trust, you might consider giving him some money to buy himself a present (something you couldn't buy for yourself here, thank's to MGL and the benevolent protection of our wonderful AG). He could then leave it to you in his will, and until that time come you could offer to store it for him so he doesn't have to go to the trouble.

Ken

 

[Cross-X]

As has been mentioned previously, if you've to a relative living our of state whom you trust, you might consider giving him some money to buy himself a present (something you couldn't buy for yourself here, thank's to MGL and the benevolent protection of our wonderful AG). He could then leave it to you in his will, and until that time come you could offer to store it for him so he doesn't have to go to the trouble.

Ken

Well, there is one bold soldier on this board that would recommend this curious, tortured procedure.

I'm no soldier.

I wouldn't have anything to do with such a scheme.

Sorry.

 

[Moderator]

I recently had this argument with a knowledgeable gun owner and they said I could not do this. I thought I could. Is there a MGL that says this is ok?

 

[LoginName]

As has been mentioned previously, if you've to a relative living our of state whom you trust, you might consider giving him some money to buy himself a present (something you couldn't buy for yourself here, thank's to MGL and the benevolent protection of our wonderful AG). He could then leave it to you in his will, and until that time come you could offer to store it for him so he doesn't have to go to the trouble.

Ken

OK, but how does one ship it (I'm assuming the guns are in FL)? If the person travels to MA and FTF delivers it, then it would be fine and well? If they send it by some sort of common carrier or delivery service, it would have to be sent to an FFL and the usual NICs and FA-10 paerwork completed?

 

[bpm990d]

This is not a nice answer, I apologize in advance. Not a personal flame on you.

Why don’t you tell your brother to grow a pair and stand up to his wife with some common sense? Or is the real problem your brother? Guns don’t just jump up out of a locked container and shoot people. Did he ask if he could send his draino, bleech, ammonia, gasoline and empty five gallon buckets to you? As reported by David B. Kopel, more children die from drowning in five gallon buckets, bathtubs and swimming pools, than do in accidental shootings. (P 313. Kopel, David B. Guns:Who Should Have them Ed. David B. Kopel. Prometheus Books, Amhurst, NY 1995)

No need to flame me. My pediatrician fiancé (doesn’t know a thing about guns except for what she sees on T.V. and reads in her pediatrician publications) got a rude introduction to her jerk, gun owning, prick of a fiancé, when I told her no way, no how, was I getting rid of my guns. The kids will be Distinguished Riflemen before the age of consent.

My recommendation is that you offer to take the guns, contingent upon he and his wife taking an NRA Home Firearms Safety course, NRA Personal Protection (refuse to be a victim) and LFI I.

By the way, the wedding is on July 9th.

Brian

 

[Len-2A Training]

OK, but how does one ship it (I'm assuming the guns are in FL)? If the person travels to MA and FTF delivers it, then it would be fine and well? If they send it by some sort of common carrier or delivery service, it would have to be sent to an FFL and the usual NICs and FA-10 paerwork completed?

One does NOT ship it. It can be "delivered" by either party to MA. There should be some papers written up and signed stating that it is a loan, not a transfer, etc.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I recently had this argument with a knowledgeable gun owner and they said I could not do this. I thought I could. Is there a MGL that says this is ok?

BJ, MGLs do not say what you can do. Laws are written to prohibit or limit actions, as well as set procedures in place (can you spell "bureaucracy"?). You'll never find a law that says "do this, it's OK"

 

[JonJ]

How does a letter saying your storing a firearm exempt you from filing an FA10?

Chapter 140: Section 128B. Unauthorized purchase of firearms; report to commissioner; penalties

Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A, and any nonresident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than such a licensee or person, and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the executive director of the criminal history systems board the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years.

 

[Cross-X]

How does a letter saying your storing a firearm exempt you from filing an FA10?

Because storing a firearm does not mean that you have obtained it. FA 10 forms are designed for notification to the Commonwealth of the transfer of a firearm, whether by purchase, sale, gift, loss, or recovery.

Storing a firearm for the true owner, or borrowing the same item, does not give rise to the necessity to file an FA 10 in MA. Trust me.

 

[JonJ]

Because storing a firearm does not mean that you have obtained it. FA 10 forms are designed for notification to the Commonwealth of the transfer of a firearm, whether by purchase, sale, gift, loss, or recovery.

Storing a firearm for the true owner, or borrowing the same item, does not give rise to the necessity to file an FA 10 in MA. Trust me.

OK...Not to nit-pick but where can I find something that says that? There are other sections that specifically name bonded storage facilities and sections that allow the transfer to a licensed person from a person who no longer can or wants an LTC/FID. I can't find anything referring to "storage" as outlined in the original question.

 

[Cross-X]

OK...Not to nit-pick but where can I find something that says that? There are other sections that specifically name bonded storage facilities and sections that allow the transfer to a licensed person from a person who no longer can or wants an LTC/FID. I can't find anything referring to "storage" as outlined in the original question.

Call the Criminal History Systems Board and ask them. Here is their number: (617) 660-4600

By the way, some might say you are indeed nit-picking. (smile)

 

[JonJ]

Call the Criminal History Systems Board and ask them. Here is their number: (617) 660-4600

By the way, some might say you are indeed nit-picking. (smile)

Will do. I'll try and call them from work and get it in the form of a letter. Just to satisfy my curiosity.
It just seems to me that it would be looked upon as a "straw purchase", not in the sense of BATFE but in the sense that it bypasses the the Mass Compliant (EOPS) and AG's lists (if they weren't compliant).

The words "purchase" and "obtains" are pretty clear.

 

[Cross-X]

Before you call, make sure you are ready to stir the hornet's nest.

Also, the person who answers the phone there may or may not know what he or she is talking about.

 

[Moderator]

Also, the person who answers the phone there may or may not know what he or she is talking about.

Get the F**K out! Are you serious?

 

[Scrivener]

Also, the person who answers the phone there may or may not know what he or she is talking about.

Then I suggest you ask to speak to Caroline Sawyer, director and legal counsel.

While you're at it, inquire how one can "deliver" a firearm out-of-state if one is NOT licensed in that state. FOPA only covers transport between states the owner is legal to have the gun in.

 

[Admin]

By the way, the wedding is on July 9th.

Brian

Congrats Brian. If you need some help with spotting at the 600 with the boys let me know.

D

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jon,

This is a technique that Ron Glidden has been espousing in his seminars since 1998 to indeed get around the List and AG Regs. He addresses it specifically wrt family and especially those that want to will the guns to the younger generation.

Jon, MGL is basically made up of "what you can NOT do", things that are illegal, and process/procedure to issue "permission slips" (licenses) and associated fees/taxes. MGL does NOT tell you "what you can do legally"!

So, asking an attorney to point out in the law where it says that you CAN give something to someone to "hold it" for you is basically a foreign concept to MGL.

Also, I think that both attorneys here are kind of warning you that IF you call CHSB and raise the visibility of this procedure, you may stir up a hornet's nest and the net result well could be a law or CMR that EXPRESSLY FORBIDS this procedure!! I look at doing that as akin to calling the AG and asking him if it's OK to buy bullets/ammo/powder from Vendor X because Vendor X told you that it is perfectly legal for you to purchase thru him under Fed Law and the Interstate Commerce Clause . . . what do YOU think the result of such an inquiry would be? [Why do we edit posts here that mention vendors names who will still ship to MA?]

 

[Cross-X]

JonJ,
I think the answer to your query can be found in the title to the statute you have cited. Take a look!

 

[JonJ]

Len, I appreciate what you say about Chief Glidden. He's taken some time to boil this all down but with all due respect it's his opinion. He has produced a very easy to understand and useful book. I've seen enough manuals from attorneys, police officers, professors and whoever else writes them. Some are dead wrong and just their interpretation. Unfortunately, none of those people are a Judge or Justice of the SJC.

I called CHSB and spoke with "Anthony". I used the extension reserved for Law Enforcement. I posed the question to him just as it is asked in this thread but I left the length of time of storage out. The answer was "No they do not have to be registered". He then asked, with no prompting by me, "how long will he be storing them?" 3 years I answered. Answer, "Then they MUST be registered". I asked what an acceptable time would be for non-registration and he stated "several weeks-to a month".

Len, I'm not so much worried about "stirring a hornet's nest" as much as someone getting the wrong information and being put in harms way.

And believe it or not, some laws do tell you what you CAN do. Re-read chp89s8 (making a left on a red light)

 

[LoginName]

Len, I appreciate what you say about Chief Glidden. He's taken some time to boil this all down but with all due respect it's his opinion. He has produced a very easy to understand and useful book. I've seen enough manuals from attorneys, police officers, professors and whoever else writes them. Some are dead wrong and just their interpretation. Unfortunately, none of those people are a Judge or Justice of the SJC.

I called CHSB and spoke with "Anthony". I used the extension reserved for Law Enforcement. I posed the question to him just as it is asked in this thread but I left the length of time of storage out. The answer was "No they do not have to be registered". He then asked, with no prompting by me, "how long will he be storing them?" 3 years I answered. Answer, "Then they MUST be registered". I asked what an acceptable time would be for non-registration and he stated "several weeks-to a month".

Len, I'm not so much worried about "stirring a hornet's nest" as much as someone getting the wrong information and being put in harms way.

And believe it or not, some laws do tell you what you CAN do. Re-read chp89s8 (making a left on a red light)

The response you received is troublesome. It wouldn't surprise me if you spoke to someone else at the CHSB you'd get a different answer.
Then again, since "Anthony" was quick to ask you about how long the guns would be stored, it sounds as if the CHSB staff has been asked or gone over this question before.

Your experience brings up a touchy scenario. The MA legislature enacts the laws, but then it's left up to the AG (or in this case the CHSB), to interpret the law... just like it's up to the BATFE to interpret federal firearms law. In the MA law that was quoted here, there is no mention of how long a storage time is acceptable. Yet, someone in the AGs or CHSB office made a decision on what's good to go and what's not.

From the information posted here by people more knowledgable than me, it's fine and well for someone to store firearms for a relative, and that they don't have to be registered. But, it also sounds as if it's a very risky move (one that I'd be hesitant to take myself).

A person put in the position of going to court over the matter would probably win the case, but not without going through all the time and expense, and aggravation. I wouldn't even want to think about the hassles afterwards if the situation involved recovering any personally owned firearms that are seized, and/or getting any firearms permit(s) reissued.

 

[KMaurer]

Of course, if one were to pick up those firearms for storage in person, there would be absolutely no record of just when the began their temporary storage in the People's Republic. Any official would seem to be at a complete loss to prove that they'd been here longer than 24 hours.

I know, Darius, it may be a convoluted, curious and tortured procedure, but so is having a burst appendix removed. OTOH, I can't think of a better way to achieve the desired outcomes, i.e., getting the guns legally and staying alive, respectively. Do you have a better suggestion?

And, yes, we all know that you're not a soldier.

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

And believe it or not, some laws do tell you what you CAN do. Re-read chp89s8 (making a left on a red light)

Ouch, skewered by a Brother!

When I last answered this question (yesterday, I think on another forum), I put "most laws" or something to that effect in my reply, something I failed to do this time. Brevity got me in this one. You are absolutely right, but I'll stick with my thought that "most" laws don't tell you what you can do, but focus on what you can't do and the penalties for same.

The problem with Anthony's answer is the same as many of the books and speakers you mention . . . he says 3 weeks, the next guy says 3 months and someone else says not more than 1 day! Who makes those rules? Individual prejudice taints the answer you or I will get.

Since the CHSB (by law) has so many holes in their database, nobody can go by what they show/don't show to prove that someone has an "unregistered gun" . . . any first year law student should be able to show the CHSB database for the joke that it is.

 

[JonJ]

JonJ,
I think the answer to your query can be found in the title to the statute you have cited. Take a look!

Good try but there's no denying the first sentence of the statute.
Have you ever tried this tact in a case?
"But your honor, my client didn't violate the title of the statute, only the text of the statute".

Ouch, skewered by a Brother!

It was a friendly and Brotherly skewering

The problem with Anthony's answer is the same as many of the books and speakers you mention . . . he says 3 weeks, the next guy says 3 months and someone else says not more than 1 day! Who makes those rules? Individual prejudice taints the answer you or I will get.

Since the CHSB (by law) has so many holes in their database, nobody can go by what they show/don't show to prove that someone has an "unregistered gun" . . . any first year law student should be able to show the CHSB database for the joke that it is.

True on getting different answers from different people. Like already pointed out, it's left up to someone's interpretation.
The statutes says "purchases or obtains" and doesn't go on with buts or ifs but at least the CHSB recognizes that someone can "obtain" a firearm temporarily.
The length of time is the issue.
Lets look at changes of addresses with LTC's, Driver's License's and MV Registrations. When you move, you have 30 days to make the notification. They recognize that under 30 days, it's temporary. That may have nothing to do with the case at hand buy at least shows what the legislature deems as temporary in some statutes.

 

[Cross-X]

JonJ, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree as to the interpretation of this statute.

If you want to keep bantering back and forth, I may just have to call brother Scrivener in for reinforcement.

You don't really want me to do that, do you?

 

[Cross-X]

PS Let me know when you finish law school and have been admitted to the bar.

Heheh.