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Sticky situation-RESOLVED!

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wilkinshire

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I used to live in Mass. Two of my pistols are at the Natick police department, and the detective who was formerly in charge of pistol licensing is refusing to allow them to be released to an FFL holding dealer, so I can sell one back to it's original owner (wchandler) and have the other shipped to me down here in SC. Her refusal is based on the fact that the guns are supposedly not Mass compliant, and as such she doesn't have to release them.


I know this is bull, but what recourse do I have, short of getting a lawyer and suing the department? (Which I may very well do anyways...)
 
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Stupidity can't be cured!

Only solution is a lawsuit . . . and use a lawyer who really understands the MGLs on guns, as neither the judge or town attorneys are likely to know squat.
 
wilkinshire said:
I used to live in Mass. Two of my pistols are at the Natick police department, and the detective who was formerly in charge of pistol licensing is refusing to allow them to be released to an FFL holding dealer, so I can sell one back to it's original owner (wchandler) and have the other shipped to me down here in SC. Her refusal is based on the fact that the guns are supposedly not Mass compliant, and as such she doesn't have to release them.
Click to expand...

Note that an FFL is not required as a rule; guns may be transferred to any duly licensed person. As you are out of state, this is a different issue. However, there is no law preventing even a Mass. FFL from selling a non-compliant gun out of state.

She is probably either:

1. A cretin; or

2. A liar for telling you that and a cretin for thinking you'll believe her.

That said, what you tolerate, you validate; what you put up with - you deserve.

Or, as Connery's character in The Untouchables was wont to say: "What are you prepared to do about it?!"
 
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wilkinshire said:
I know this is bull, but what recourse do I have, short of getting a lawyer and suing the department? (Which I may very well do anyways...)
Click to expand...
If you've got money to burn, sue her, and make a big publicity stunt out of it. It'll cost the MA taxpayers money, a topic for which the people of this state have infamous cognitive dissonance (i.e., outraged over waste despite electing the same drunken spendthrifts every two years).

Believe me: it'll outrage me. [smile]

If you don't have money to burn, suck up the loss but take a few hours to post lots of messages to *relevant* forums around the internet indicating why exactly people should stay the hell away from MA (i.e. because our rulers are power-hungry a**h***s with zero respect for property rights), and maybe include a link to the Natick PD website and this f***tard's business phone number, recommending that people call her and remind her who's paying her. This may not accomplish much, but it will do a lot more than (say) sending letters to the MA congresscretins, who will promptly dump them in the circular file without anyone reading them... and most importantly, it'll make you feel good. ;-)

When you are tempted to do nothing to stem the inevitable march of bad government, remember that the people get the government they deserve.

Kyle
 
Why are they in the hands of the PD? Would the answer to that be embarrassing if you called the media and got some attention thrown on this?
 
It wouldn't embarass me to make a media issue of it, it's pretty much just the money issue. Scrivener is right, but I just don't feel right suing anyone. I would be wrong to expect anything more than the return of my property, and I've been told it'll cost me $5k at a minimum. That's money I need to pay for school, and with just over a thousand bucks of property, a poor investment since I'm never planning on going back to Mass.

How does Title 18 pertain to my situation? All I'm being deprived of is my property.
 
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Just pay for an attorney to file the paperwork for the suit. That may be enough to get them to cough up the stuff. You can always drop it later if they are going to drag it out.

B
 
wilkinshire said:
I used to live in Mass. Two of my pistols are at the Natick police department, and the detective who was formerly in charge of pistol licensing is refusing to allow them to be released to an FFL holding dealer, so I can sell one back to it's original owner (wchandler) and have the other shipped to me down here in SC. Her refusal is based on the fact that the guns are supposedly not Mass compliant, and as such she doesn't have to release them.


I know this is bull, but what recourse do I have, short of getting a lawyer and suing the department? (Which I may very well do anyways...)
Click to expand...

Why are they there in the first place?
 
IANAL, so take this for what it's worth . . .

- IF you can make a case that it is a Civil Rights violation (and I have no idea if a legit case can be made), be aware that no town insurance covers that action.

- Therefore, the individual officer could be sued and would have to pay their own defense out of their pocket.

- Not sure if a judge might issue a judgment to reimburse you the legal fees, but it is something you can request.

A quick consult with an attorney would be a wise move. Then you can make an informed decision to either allow them to steal the guns or proceed to get them back.
 
If the officer is a member of the legal defense fund, she won't pay anything for a lawyer. The city or town will also provide a lawyer at their expense. The only thing the officer would be monetarily responsible for would be punitive damages which by the looks of it would be a LONG shot.

If you don't want to spend the money for a lawyer, setup a meeting with the chief and have him/her explain why this is being done. Be prepared and know what you're talking about. He may know the law or will seek advice from someone (Chief Glidden) who knows.
They have your guns. What have you got to lose?
 
Yes, it does have to do with that. The reason for suspension doesn't have any bearing on the fact that they're keeping my property in violation of their own laws, but the only clear answer she has given thusfar is "we were told you had moved out of state".

I'll fight that later, and I know I will win. I'm touched by people questioning my integrity and apparently my "suitability". Maybe you didn't notice, but the Second Amendment doesn't say "shall not be infringed....unless the IA gets a bug up their butt". ;-)
 
wilkinshire said:
It wouldn't embarass me to make a media issue of it, it's pretty much just the money issue. Scrivener is right, but I just don't feel right suing anyone. I would be wrong to expect anything more than the return of my property, and I've been told it'll cost me $5k at a minimum. That's money I need to pay for school, and with just over a thousand bucks of property, a poor investment since I'm never planning on going back to Mass.

How does Title 18 pertain to my situation? All I'm being deprived of is my property.
Click to expand...


If someone was trying to screw me over on the ownership of my property I would have no issue suing them. I wouldn't feel right if I didn't.

If it's a money thing then cut your losses and buy new guns in your new state. It sounds as if it's cheaper to do that anyway and because Natick suspended your license (for whatever reason) you may not win them back anyway. I think the suspension goes a long way towards a judge or whomever to make a decision against giving you back the firearms in question.
 
Thank you for offering, but no. I won't allow that. I figure I can handle working 60 hours a week for the rest of the summer, and if I can't, my credit is decent enough. Do lawyers take Visa? LOL
You guys are right that it's absolutely worth fighting, once I've exhausted my options within the police chain of command. I know they have an internal affairs officer, so that will be my next step if I don't have any luck with her LT/ supervisor. After that, I'll probably see if I can meet with the Chief in person before going the legal route.
 
sksguns said:
I think the suspension goes a long way towards a judge or whomever to make a decision against giving you back the firearms in question.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Property is property, and I've never done anything that disqualifies me from owning firearms or having a CCW permit anywhere, except apparently Massachusetts. Where in the law does it say that they can keep my property, and if it doesn't, where do they get the right to break their own laws?
 
My recommendation would be to schedule a 1-2 hour conference with one of the attorneys who specialized in gun regulatory matters, following with a visit by you and him to the Chief is likely to clear up the matter.
 
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One of the first things you need to figure out is "are they holding the gun because they don't understand firearms law" (police officers don't always get the finer points correct) or because the just plain don't want to return it (for example, if they decided you "shouldn't have guns" or "got off on something they wanted you convicted of")"?

If the issue is the former, suggest that the Natick chief contact Chief Ron Glidden of the Lee PD who serves as chairman of the State Gun Control Advisory Board. Chief Glidden is one of the state's top experts in firearms law and a straight shooter when it comes to giving an answer that is technically and factually accurate. I would suggest this avenue before the internal affairs route, as the police will be reluctant to find wrongdoing on the part of an officer who may be acting in good faith but from the perspective of a partial comprehension of MGL and CMR.

If, on the other hand, the issue is not one of their failure to understand nuances of MGL and simply a desire not to let you get the guns back, you've got a problem that mere facts can't resolve :).
 
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Thank you all for your advice and support. I've decided that the financial considerations aren't really as important as standing up for what I believe, and I'm going to take it as far as I need to. I am <b>hoping</b> that this is a simple case of this one LEO not understanding the laws, but if it's simple abuse of power....well, I'm even less of a fan of that.
I'll keep updating this thread, and once I get her explanation of her refusal to release the guns in writing, I'll scan and post it here.
 
I think it would be in your best interest to pay to have a competent attorney draft a letter, and send it on your behalf. By starting big, and with the backing of a good attorney, you may just save yourself a long drawn out battle.
 
wilkinshire said:
I disagree. Property is property, and I've never done anything that disqualifies me from owning firearms or having a CCW permit anywhere, except apparently Massachusetts. Where in the law does it say that they can keep my property, and if it doesn't, where do they get the right to break their own laws?
Click to expand...

INAL, but if you don't have a license to posess them why would they give them to you? All I hear out here is "chief's discretion" and as such no judge would overrule that. If that is all true then I think you are fighting a losing battle. Perhaps once notified of the suspension you should have given the firearms to a licensed friend to hold for you. Unless of course the police showed up and notified you and then took posession in person then that obviously couldn't be done....

Even with a lawyer I'm not too optimistic that you will get them back.

I wish you luck though if you in fact pursue this.
 
I'd contact the town administrator and the selectmen, let them know that the PD is illegally refusing to return your lawful property, falsely asserting a rule applicable only to licensed firearm dealers are a basis for this refusal. Say that you'd like to save the town the expense and bad publicity for the town that would ensue if you're forced to go to court to have your property returned. Ask them politely to have town council look at the situation and advice the police to comply with the law. It may or may not work, but I wouldn't cost you much. You could even have an attorney write the letter and send it for a lot less than it would to actually sue the bastards.

(Unfortunately, as the saying goes, if you want satisfaction go to a hooker; if you want to get screwed go to court.)

Ken
 
sksguns said:
INAL, but if you don't have a license to posess them why would they give them to you? All I hear out here is "chief's discretion" and as such no judge would overrule that. If that is all true then I think you are fighting a losing battle. Perhaps once notified of the suspension you should have given the firearms to a licensed friend to hold for you. Unless of course the police showed up and notified you and then took posession in person then that obviously couldn't be done....

Even with a lawyer I'm not too optimistic that you will get them back.

I wish you luck though if you in fact pursue this.
Click to expand...

I live in South Carolina now. I was stationed in Massachusetts for the Army. The notice of suspension was sent to my old unit in Massachusetts, where my pistols were being stored in the arms room, while I was in Virginia. I was never notified personally until the Detective in question had already taken posession of the pistols, and I had returned to Mass (after the 90 day period for appeals had expired).
I am not asking them to release the pistols to ME, I'm asking them to release them to my designee (an FFL holding dealer), so that one can be sold and one can be shipped to me. I'm not about to fly up to Mass when I can pay someone to mail them to me. Having reviewed my initial post, I can see where I may not have made that clear.
Down here, they have to give you a CCW permit unless you're legally ineligible to own a firearm. You can own any (non-NFA) firearm with no permits at all. This is America.
 
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