Steel Cases

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This is more about pistol ammo than rifle ammo. Aside from the arguments about lacquered steel cases and dirty chambers, I'd like to know more about the effect of case expansion and contraction with steel cases as opposed to brass. I think that extraction problems are at least in part due to steel cases (.45 in particular) expanding upon firing and not contracting fast enough for the extractor to pull it out of the chamber. My though is that the case stays expanded just long enough that the extractor rolls over the rim. Anyone have any hard data on this?
 
No hard data but if I had to guess... The duration is probably a non issue. A nanosecond shouldn't make a difference with contraction when it comes to Brass vs. Steel. Id apply the theory of the extractor can bite down and grasp the softer brass easier as opposed to slipping off the harder steel. Now add a lacquer finish and it compounds the issue. Steel casings are just not as good period. I'd wager most handguns were never originally tested, intended or designed with the thought or use of steel casings.

My 2c for what it's worth.
 
Mainly shoot steel never had problems. Ar's Ak's bolt action guns 1911's xds all like the steel I run in them.

If any thing the brass distorts more and the steel springs back .
 
I shoot steel in my M&P and my AK never had a problem no data to support anything but again no problems to report
 
how long has russian or any manufacture of ammo been using steel cased or copper washed steel cases.....

Makes me wonder where guns designed around brass cased cartridges or was it that brass can be eaily manipulated ? I for one also shoot more steel than brass. The abosolute worst ammo I ever used is UMC 223 brass cased.
 
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Shooters outpost has a G30 on display, that blew apart from a ruptured steel case. Emphasizing why they do not sell steel cased pistol ammo
 
Shooters outpost has a G30 on display, that blew apart from a ruptured steel case. Emphasizing why they do not sell steel cased pistol ammo


[rolleyes][rolleyes] what a crock of shite.

Are they under the impression that a brass cased round wouldn't have done the same?

Guns don't blow up because of what the shell casing is made of, they blow up from over charges, out of battery detonations and obstructed barrels.

Thanks for the heads up on the shooters outhouse, sounds like areal informed crowd there.....NOT
 
[rolleyes][rolleyes] what a crock of shite.

Are they under the impression that a brass cased round wouldn't have done the same?

Guns don't blow up because of what the shell casing is made of, they blow up from over charges, out of battery detonations and obstructed barrels.

Thanks for the heads up on the shooters outhouse, sounds like areal informed crowd there.....NOT

This, i shoot steel through everything i have never had an issue.
 
Steel cases do not fully expand and seal the chamber like brass. This is what causes failure to extract, a dirty chamber in a gun that never gets cleaned. I've shot over 10k rounds of steel ammo. The only failure to extract I've ever had was due to my extractor lip breaking off.

Also modern steel ammo is not lacquer coated, it's polymer coated.

I also reload steel case .223.
 
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Steel cases do not fully expand and seal the chamber like brass. This is what causes failure to extract, a dirty chamber in a gun that never gets cleaned. I've shot over 10k rounds of steel ammo. The only failure to extract I've ever had was due to my extractor lip breaking off.

Also modern steel ammo is not lacquer coated, it's polymer coated.

I also reload steel case .223.

Winner winner chicken dinner.
Working with metal for a living . brass and steels the same thickness steel takes more force to deform.

I'm lost on your sealing the chamber thing?

My understanding is te here it head spaces from is where it seals not the case filling up the chamber the mill second after the primer goes off .
 
I bought a case of Wolf 9mm and Wolf 45, steel cased. Tried it in 5 different guns and had failures to extract or feed problems with all 5 guns. Spoke with S&W tech supt and they confirmed that some particular model guns that I tried it in had problems feeding that crap. Got rid of all of that and will never let a steel cased pistol round near any of my handguns.

Meanwhile I shoot steel in my ARs, AKs, etc without any issues whatsoever.
 
Steel ammo, especially pistol, is typically lower velocity/pressure. This leads to a lot of feeding issues in semi auto guns.

That's why you always here people on here complaining about their ARs giving them problems, and the solution is nearly always a lighter buffer. Problem with a pistol is you can't lighten the slide.
 
I forget if it was wolf or tula steel some one did testing and it was little higher velocity then some brass he tested . Which I found funny cause I was told its allways slower .

But I notice just from feel Tula .45 is lighter then wbb. .

What hand guns are you guys having trouble with. I'm kinda shocked I've never had trouble with my 1911r1
 
I also work with metal. A case is supposed to expand and seal off the chamber so combustion all goes forward. This is the reason that my .45 ACP bullseye loads are sooty down the outside of the case after firing, not enough pressure to cause the case to properly expand. In this case, it doesn't make a difference as I look for accuracy, not speed.

Winner winner chicken dinner.
Working with metal for a living . brass and steels the same thickness steel takes more force to deform.

I'm lost on your sealing the chamber thing?

My understanding is te here it head spaces from is where it seals not the case filling up the chamber the mill second after the primer goes off .
 
Does steel cased ammo have lower velocity/pressure because it's loaded down or because the chamber isn't sealed properly, losing some of the pressure back into the chamber?

Steel ammo, especially pistol, is typically lower velocity/pressure. This leads to a lot of feeding issues in semi auto guns.

That's why you always here people on here complaining about their ARs giving them problems, and the solution is nearly always a lighter buffer. Problem with a pistol is you can't lighten the slide.
 
I have been shooting a lot more IDPA and USPSA this year. Started shooting Tul steel for cost savings as I am not set up for reloading yet. I shoot 9, .40 and .45, all in Walther P99s or S&W SW99s and haven't had any problems at all. My .45 has not been fed anything else since I got it, and I have about 3500 rounds through it in a year and a half, with one cleaning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I also work with metal. A case is supposed to expand and seal off the chamber so combustion all goes forward. This is the reason that my .45 ACP bullseye loads are sooty down the outside of the case after firing, not enough pressure to cause the case to properly expand. In this case, it doesn't make a difference as I look for accuracy, not speed.

My understanding of head spacing mite be off lol. I thought where it head spaces acts as the seal but I understand what your saying. I understand more about how guns function and how to build them etc then the science behind bullets. When I start to reload I guess I'll learn more.


I've noticed with my Remington r1 steel cased rounds aren't sooty but Remington umc comes out black .
 
Does steel cased ammo have lower velocity/pressure because it's loaded down or because the chamber isn't sealed properly, losing some of the pressure back into the chamber?

Loaded down. My 16" Daniel Defense upper shoots spec M193 55gr at ~3150fps. Tula 55gr comes out about 2800.
 
[rolleyes][rolleyes] what a crock of shite.

Are they under the impression that a brass cased round wouldn't have done the same?

Guns don't blow up because of what the shell casing is made of, they blow up from over charges, out of battery detonations and obstructed barrels.

Thanks for the heads up on the shooters outhouse, sounds like areal informed crowd there.....NOT

Before you run your mouth and continue to insult people;
1. The display is to show that we have had more failures with steel or aluminum than brass.
2. A failure can happen with any ammunition, but we've seen more squib loads and poor quality with steel and aluminum.
3. Using steel or aluminum at Manchester Firing Line has had extremely poor results and many more examples of failures in handguns due to the poor quality & filth that you get in steel & aluminum.
4. The Glock 30 in the case was the result of a customer sneaking steel ammunition in to use in a rental. The poor quality of the Russian Steel .45 caused that failure and it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

MFLR or any indoor range is a great test bed for firearms and ammunition and ranges are the first to see the problems.

So we are informed
 
Interesting torture test here on brass vs. steel in ARs: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Statistically significant increase in malfunctions with steel compared to brass, but whether one stoppage every 667 rounds concerns you or not would be up to the individual.

Maybe more concerning is the barrel erosion from the jacket material used in the Russian ammo. Keyholing at 5000 rounds.

I've got a Sig defensive rifle course next month and am debating on whether to shoot Wolf or Federal. I think I'll start with Wolf and if it gives me any trouble I'll switch.
 
Its funny how bad wolf seems to suck yet wolf is the only ammunition manufacture that I know of that offers a guarantee
WOLF is the only ammunition company that provides a 100% Performance Guarantee. If you are not fully satisfied, WOLF will refund your money on the unused portion of the ammunition, including and freight charges.

Now a lot of what we do not know is what some of the steel cased ammo is (223 for example) suppose to be loaded to as for actual specs and testing equipment.
22rem Wolf polyformance ammo is rated @ 3241fps
Milclasic as far as I can tell is only different in the primer? Still rates 3241fps. Wolf gold is the only wolf 223 that is labeled 223/m193 @ 3250 fps
Seems funny that tula 55gn 223 runs the same as wolf @ 3241fps
I have crony'd silver bear out of my carbine and although it seemed "light" in recoil and muzzle report it averaged 3087fps.
Barrel wear hmmmm I don't know the few people I know that are running 5k rounds or more through there ARs are either running 3 gun or carbine courses @ close range or service rifle guys who will usually think about replacing a barrel anyways between 3-5k rounds.
I shoot 9x18mm and it shoots very clean and no sooty chambers or cases.
45acp wolf in my sw1911 no issues

Steel is what it is. Works for some and not for others. In the end if your worried about barrel wear after 5k rounds the savings shooting steel vs brass you could buy a quality upper or a few barrels?
 
This is more about pistol ammo than rifle ammo. Aside from the arguments about lacquered steel cases and dirty chambers, I'd like to know more about the effect of case expansion and contraction with steel cases as opposed to brass. I think that extraction problems are at least in part due to steel cases (.45 in particular) expanding upon firing and not contracting fast enough for the extractor to pull it out of the chamber. My though is that the case stays expanded just long enough that the extractor rolls over the rim. Anyone have any hard data on this?
I have no source for hard data but I think hornady wouldn't have dumped all that money into their steel match ammo if steel sucked that bad. I know there is some you tube videos of a few guys doing actual Rockwell hardness testing on the cases both steel and brass. I cant find the link, although I found one before about internal ballistics that had a lot of info. I could only absorb axlittle of it. Once the brief vocabulary info ended with fotmulas looking like the Manhattan project I was lost. There was a good amount of the reactions of metal to expansion and heat.
Good luck and keep shooting.
 
Shooters outpost has a G30 on display, that blew apart from a ruptured steel case. Emphasizing why they do not sell steel cased pistol ammo


While i can understand their concern, n=1 isnt sufficient for any statistical arguments. "Issues" w steel cased ammo is purely anecdotal (to my best understanding).

personally i shoot steel in any modern striker or hammer gun. My older guns i avoid steel mostly just to be "polite" to the gun assuming maybe extractor isnt as strong...but who knows its all conjecture.

IMO reloaded ammo can present many more issues to a gun than steel cased ammo.
 
IMO reloaded ammo can present many more issues to a gun than steel cased ammo.

Have to strongly disagree with that. (From a personal standpoint)
Reloads are only as good as the person who made them.

Commercially reloaded ammo can have any number of issues but I trust my own over even new manufactured ammo. I've had more issues and inconsistencies with Rem UMC, WWB, Federal etc. than my own reloads. At least I know where they came from and who made them.
 
I ran around 160 rds of wolf poly and 60 rds of Tula at the car shoot .
I had 3 duds. 1 wolf the rest Tula . In my osprey piston ar.
I tried to shoot it again they where duds not light primer strikes. Last shoot I had that problem cause of frog lube ....
Ran the gun on wd40 at that shoot lol.

Around 120 rds of wolf military classic 7.62x39 in a wasr akm.

150-170 rds of golden tiger 5.45 in a converted saiga. No problems in the ak.
Also I've seen a dumb ass load that saiga with half golden tigger .223 and 5.45 and it still shoot every rd. I won't say what nes member did that lol I forget his handle . Ak's where Loki's.


My inly problems with steel ammo is a few duds every now and then . I find a much higher dud rate with federal .22lr.
 
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