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Starter shotgun for 3 gun matches, etc.

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What is a good place to start? I've talked to a few people to get their opinions but I'm a little uncertain.

I was looking at a Mossberg 590 or a Remington 870. Both pump actions with about 7 rnd capacity. However- I realize these aren't the most ideal for competition (autos are I guess) but the price is good and I really can't see myself investing tons in this occasional hobby.

The 870 7 shot gun has an 18" barrel with a fixed choke. The other 870s seem to have much longer barrels that may be too long. Do I need a gun with a choke for these shotguns in a match? Is 18" the right length or is 26" too long? I'm leaning towards a pump... just because I like them... fun factor and all. [laugh]
 
What division do you want to shoot in? The least expensive way to shoot in Tactical is an 1100. Magazine limit is 8. A barrel of about 22 inches is good, 18 is okay, if it's fitted with choke tubes, which most aren't.
Unless you want to shoot Heavy Metal, I don't recommend a pump. Heavy Metal usually requires a .308, a 12 ga shotgun, some matches require a pump, and a pistol of .45ACP.
You might like shooting a pump, but, would you shoot a Single Stack with 8 round mags in Limited???
 
What division do you want to shoot in? The least expensive way to shoot in Tactical is an 1100. Magazine limit is 8. A barrel of about 22 inches is good, 18 is okay, if it's fitted with choke tubes, which most aren't.

See that's part of the problem for me making a decision. I'm not a huge rifle/shootgun guy- mostly like shooting IDPA/USPSA in production/ssp. So I have no idea what division I'd shoot in. But the side matches and 3 gun stuff does look fun. Plus I'd just like to have a shotgun. But like you said it seems like most shorter barrel guns (at least the entry level ones I've looked at) don't have choke tubes like you mentioned.


You might like shooting a pump, but, would you shoot a Single Stack with 8 round mags in Limited???

Yeah- that would suck.
 
I have only sgot a few 3 gun matches - but a lot of shotgun side matches.
I am a fan of the Remington 1187.
You can find a boat load of info at the BE Forums
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=86

Good Luck.

Wow Paul- I didn't realize there was so much on this site. I go there all the time too. Shame on me. Regardless what I get one for- a choke gun is a minimun.
 
Switch chokes, switch barrels.

Well one of the nice features of the Remmy auto, is you can switch the barrel in about 3 minutes without any tools. [grin]

Here is my setup. I picked up the 1100 for $200 at Marlboro a couple of years ago because the furniture on it was junk. I knew I was going to toss them anyway.
100_2268.jpg


If you go with one of these type guns, I cannot recommend the DMW "easy loader" enough. http://www.davesmetalworks.com/rem.html It takes a little time to install it correctly, but is worth it's weight in gold when it comes time to stuff shells in the mag.
100_2271.jpg
 
Lugnut,

I also use an 1187. Its an 1187P with an 18" improved cylinder barrel. It works great for the side matches and most of the stages except those with steel that is out beyond 50' or so. If I would get off my but and buy a longer barrel with choke capability (like Dan mentioned) and it would be perfect. I love it.

I did just buy a Saiga12 though. It will be quicker reloading thats for sure. We'll see how I do with it this year. [devil]
 
An 1100 with an extension is always a good bet for competition. On the other hand, I've done 3 gun with a 590 and shot well.
 
Thanks for all the good advice guys- I appreciate it. I'm not so sure how much I'll get into shot guns so I want to start with an ok set up.... but of course I realize that if it's anything like handguns and I really get into it... well let's just say it won't be my only shotgun. [laugh]
 
+1 on the 1100. Used ones are available for very reasonable prices and the easily changed barrel will allow you to adapt the gun to many different uses. I have one with a ten shot tube and a Bushnell Holosight that I love.
 
The Saiga is awesome. I have had two and have played with everything on it. In competition it is still lacking. First, based on common rules, it puts you in Open class. In a 3-gun match, that puts in with race guns (I'm ok with that, it is where I want to be). Second, even with mags and practice it is relatively slow to load. I practiced a lot with a timer and both weak hand and strong hand methods still felt slow and inconsistent compared to tube guns. A good shooter with a 8 round tube Benelli smoked me in a match. There are expensive mag wells coming out that will probably change that. Third, its an AK design but it isn't AK reliable across the wide range of shotgun ammo you'll come across. The tolerances are all over the place with those guns and they are pretty rough inside. Yeah, a $1k+ Tromix is sweet and I have one of mine tuned up prety good but it took a lot. I love it enough that I think everyone should have one yet it isn't an out of the box starter shotgun for 3-gun. I would like to check out one of those FN shotguns, can't remember the model name. I likethe M1 Benellis too.
 
$550.00 to $ 575.00 at the Manchester Show 2 weeks ago I saw close to a dozen. And with a couple of bucks it s= is a shooter. The AK style is is a learned manipulation but when it is mastered you can fly. 10 + 1

I have 2 and would put either one against an out of the bag rem or moss
 
putting a saiga up against a cheap out of the box stock remington 1100, 1187 or mossberg is like putting up a chevy cavalier against a v8 mustang. it's not even fair. Once you get the saiga working perfectly, figured out what ammo you're going to use, and you've gone and done the Ak conversion, and you've spent more in mags than you would for that stock remington, sure, it'll smoke the remington if standing reloads are required in a stage. But if you go up against someone who has mastered reloading those tubes, and he can do it on the move, you're going to get beat. the saiga is great, i would only rather have a usas12 or spas15. But unless you've got: 550 to over 700 (price gougers) for the basic saiga model, a gun that was like 250 from CDNN about 3 years ago or less when they were dumping them, then you're going to spend: another 150-200 converting it if you do it yourself, or another 500ish from Tromix. Then you'll want at least another 6 mags, and you're going to buy either 10 round AGPs, which some fools are actually asking over 100 each for out there when you can just buy them directly from AGP for like 50 a piece, thats another 300 then you're going to spend time tuning those mags to fit your gun, because chances are your guns tolerances are off enough that the mags wont fit without a bit of trimming. Not a big deal if you've got a dremel. then you'll want something to stick an optic on there, $100 for the top rail, then you'll want a sight, say you get something cheap for 150 then, you'll want chokes, and if you can find them, you'll spend 80 something for them, or just send it to briley and have a set installed for big money then you'll tell yourself you must have the mag well, so you'll buy that and get to dremeling more mags, which will become useless to any other saiga you may have that doesnt have a magwell. of course if you want to shoot slugs, and they are high brass, you've got a little more mag work to do if you have the AGPs then you'll probably want a drum mag for it.... so if you're ok with spending 1 to 2 thousand turning a saiga into a great gun, with all the toys, then cool, go for it. but if you want to just dabble in the shotgun matches, which there are very few of in this area, spend a couple hundred on a used 1100 or 1187, (which you can typically find at skeet clubs) get yourself some $25 chokes, and a bandolier to carry the ammo, and you're good to go, real cheaply. And if someone says, you need a Benelli because you can pull the trigger fast enough to outrun the cycling system on a remington, call Shenanigans.
 
The FN shotgun is the SLP, it's the same as the Winchester SuperX 2 Tactical variation with rifle sights.
New England 3 gun matches are run at Pioneer Sportmans, sometimes Pelham Fish and Game, Harvard Sportsmans, and perhaps up in Maine. They are not plentiful, and willingness to travel is needed.
 
You're getting a little carried away with the Saiga issues. Mine runs perfect with the AGP mags, no mods required. A mag well - why? It's an AK, if you know how to reload them they are plenty fast. The AK conversion you speak of is nice but not necessary for 3-gun, you can shoot it with the standard stock if you want. Basically to run it you need some mags and the gun. Everything else is optional, and you will be faster than almost anyone out there. Mags are expensive, but you won't run an 1100 without an EZ-loader, or you won't for long, as I can attest to...
A used 1100 will get you into a 3-gun cheaper than a Saiga, but having run both, I really like the Saiga a lot more.
 
I have no problem with the saiga, i dont even consider everything I mentioned to be "issues" more so, options.
If you think you can load a saiga with that sorry ass ak style reload as fast as you can if it's got one of the magwells, you're sorely mistaken. 2 or 3 seconds may not mean anything if you are competing in C class, but when you're competing for overall match wins, a second saved can be the difference between 1st and 5th. If you want to work on grabbing that bolt, locking it back and then hooking the front of the mag inside the receiver, then rocking it back and locking it in place, thats just not quick, and "plenty fast" doesn't cut it.
A saiga is difficult to load with the bolt forward and a full 10 round mag, unless you've modified the bolt, the mags, or have a mag well. Completing the AK style conversion makes reloading slightly faster and easier due to the leverage and angle you're able to exert on the gun due to the pistol grip.

Saying you only need mags and the gun and you'll be faster than almost anyone out there is a fallacy, or is a testament that everyone you shoot against sucks.

As for no mods required, between the 5 other friends I shoot with who also own Saigas (a total of 12 Saigas12s between the 6 of us) None of them are identical. Some mags will fit in some guns, some won't lock or even fit into the others without mods. If you get one that fits all your mags without having to sand some sections down, then great. But odds are, you won't get that. Only 2 out of the twelve guns can grab any stock mag, saiga, agp or surefire, and stuff it right in. One of those 2 was worked on by Tromix.

as for speed reloading without an easyloader, ScottB on this forum can't use an easy loader in the Division which he competes in, and he's just about as fast as someone using an easy loader in the open division. You practice it, you'll get good at it.

I personally am a big fan of the Saiga. But I'm not going to sugarcoat the gun, and not act like it's got no flaws because I own it. The Saiga is a good gun, if you want to take the time and money to make it great, you can do that too.

Is it a good gun for entry into three gun? yes, because if you decide you want to stick with 3 gun, you'll want to eventually buy one, so may as well get it first and not spend anything else on the other guns.
 
Well.... I'm leaning towards an 11-87 Sportsman. I want a 26" barrel but no one seems to have them now- just the 28". I figure I can get a mag extension if I get into competition and I should be able to have fun with some entry level trap as well with this gun. Might not be a pump be almost everyone has discouraged me from a pump.
 
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