Hey guys! longtime visitor, 1st time poster. I was just wondering, does anyone know why MA doesn't list Springfield Armory(more specifically the XD series)on their approved firearms roster? i'm in Love with the xd-subcompact 9mm but AAA guns said that it is not legal to own one at this point. thanks!
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Springfield Armory
- Thread starter thalife
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Welcome to the forum thalife! I too love the XD's as well. I am only guessing that Springfield didn't want to spend the $$ to make a MA compliant version since it's a fairly new pistol and they don't know what the demand is going to be.
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They have to sacrifice 4 or 5 of each model to be destructively tested. However the testing for CA and MA can be done by the same labs at the same time. Our AG's refusal to tell them what is acceptable and what isn't is usually the reason that companies kiss off MA.
The testing isn't the problem, the uncertainty (AG) is!
Contact the company directly, talk with their marketing VP and ask them directly or tell them that there is significant interest here. Might matter to them.
The testing isn't the problem, the uncertainty (AG) is!
Contact the company directly, talk with their marketing VP and ask them directly or tell them that there is significant interest here. Might matter to them.
I think they are like H&K, just dont want to waste time and resources to make a compliant pistol only to have MA changes it's laws next year and ban them again.
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KMaurer said:
Ken, on the contrary . . . that proves it!
H&K and Taurus aren't on the EOPS list either. I spoke with the National Sales Mgr for Taurus a few years ago about this and he told me bluntly:
- MA is a small market for guns,
- After meeting with the AG, they knew that no matter what they did they'd ALWAYS be subject to fines/persecution by the AG, since he wouldn't tell them what they needed to do to comply and then bless the result,
- Meeting the EOPS testing requirements wasn't the issue (they are CA listed and requirements are almost identical for EOPS),
- End result - "why waste the money on submitting to MA", risk is too great for potential revenue gain.
These (including Springfield) are companies that have made a business decision that MA isn't worth the legal risk/hassle of dealing with the AG! Just like the companies who won't sell slings or wood stocks to MA residents either! Telling us all to F**k Off and Die is a better business decision than playing Russian Roulette with the AG (who is the only one that gets to load/spin the gun).
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derek said:
An important technical correction:
- Laws get changed, but it takes time and they might be able to lobby for changes. That isn't likely to bother the mfrs.
- The AG "Regs" get written by one person, approved by the same person, and prosecuted by the same person . . . and he can do it any time he feels like putting pen to paper! There is NO judicial or legislative oversight to what the AG does. THAT is what bothers the mfrs!
Dealing with MA (AG) is like building a skyscraper on quicksand! And negotiating a compromise with the MA AG is like negotiating with Osama Bin Laden!
When I spoke with the regional sales manager for H&K he told me what I stated in the above post. Maybe that was his PC way of telling me Adolf Riley sucks?
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derek said:
I suspect that was what he was referring to.
Every state seems to have anti-gun legislation filed annually, but very little gets thru the meat-grinder.
Even in MA, we've only had the changes in 1998 and 2004, nothing else positive or negative has really changed in between.
But when anyone in power can effectively change things (and shows the willingness to do so) on a whim, with no review, that will upset anyone trying to market product in that area.
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Yes, I toyed with changing the word to persecuted. Either/both are correct.
Sarcasm intended, but what I stated is also 100% accurate as to the power of that office when mis-used (as it has been under the current and previous AGs).
Sarcasm intended, but what I stated is also 100% accurate as to the power of that office when mis-used (as it has been under the current and previous AGs).
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thalife said:
If you buy a handgun frame or handgun in any state other than the one you live in, you become a Federal Felon! BATFE may pay you a visit and you might get an all expense paid vacation in the gray-bar hotel!
Not a good idea!
loophole?
courtsey of goal.org:
By federal law, a dealer from another state may not sell you a handgun directly, he must ship the handgun to a dealer in your state, where the transfer takes place. This means the gun must still comply with the Attorney General’s standards, and the standards in the law.
Do These Standards Apply to Private Sales?
No, the standards of the law and of the Attorney General, apply only to retail sales by dealers, not to private sales between individuals.
Are Private Citizens Forbidden to Own Guns if They are NOT on the Approved Weapons Roster?
No, the list is a list of firearms that can be sold at retail by licensed dealers. Neither standard – the law or the Attorney General – limits directly the type of guns a citizen may own.
so i just have to find a private party outside of MA to purchase one from?
courtsey of goal.org:
By federal law, a dealer from another state may not sell you a handgun directly, he must ship the handgun to a dealer in your state, where the transfer takes place. This means the gun must still comply with the Attorney General’s standards, and the standards in the law.
Do These Standards Apply to Private Sales?
No, the standards of the law and of the Attorney General, apply only to retail sales by dealers, not to private sales between individuals.
Are Private Citizens Forbidden to Own Guns if They are NOT on the Approved Weapons Roster?
No, the list is a list of firearms that can be sold at retail by licensed dealers. Neither standard – the law or the Attorney General – limits directly the type of guns a citizen may own.
so i just have to find a private party outside of MA to purchase one from?
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Re: loophole?
Huh?
Only do this if you are looking for three squares, a steel cot, and a new boyfriend named Bubba!
It is a Federal Felony to purchase or otherwise obtain a handgun (or any long gun) from a private party out-of-state! Only exception is inheritance or a C&R handgun (long guns too, just to be complete) if you have a C&R FFL AND the gun is a C&R qualified handgun (or long gun).
The GOAL statement was correct, for the purposes they were responding to, however don't be misled that it is the only part of the Fed Law.
Your only options are:
- Find a MA FFL that will "import" the frames and sell them to you (not easy to do). See my prior comments on this in many threads - search is your friend. http://northeastshooters.com/search.php
- Buy one from a MA resident who brought it into MA legally when s/he moved here . . . private sale only.
- Someone must leave you the gun/frame in their will . . . and they must die first!![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
thalife said:
Huh?
Only do this if you are looking for three squares, a steel cot, and a new boyfriend named Bubba!
It is a Federal Felony to purchase or otherwise obtain a handgun (or any long gun) from a private party out-of-state! Only exception is inheritance or a C&R handgun (long guns too, just to be complete) if you have a C&R FFL AND the gun is a C&R qualified handgun (or long gun).
The GOAL statement was correct, for the purposes they were responding to, however don't be misled that it is the only part of the Fed Law.
Your only options are:
- Find a MA FFL that will "import" the frames and sell them to you (not easy to do). See my prior comments on this in many threads - search is your friend. http://northeastshooters.com/search.php
- Buy one from a MA resident who brought it into MA legally when s/he moved here . . . private sale only.
- Someone must leave you the gun/frame in their will . . . and they must die first!
Re: loophole?
I think maybe thalife is a little cunfused about "Dealers". Anyone who has an 01 FFL is a dealer. So if you were to order a firearm from out of state, whoever you would use to transfer it (01 FFL) would have to be a dealer. Tthe law applies to him even though he only transfering and not selling you the firearm.
thalife said:
I think maybe thalife is a little cunfused about "Dealers". Anyone who has an 01 FFL is a dealer. So if you were to order a firearm from out of state, whoever you would use to transfer it (01 FFL) would have to be a dealer. Tthe law applies to him even though he only transfering and not selling you the firearm.
Rob Boudrie
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Re: loophole?
Not exactly.
The MA chapter 180 gun certification requirements, as well as AG's double-secret requirements apply only to"purveyors of handguns". A purveyor of handguns is defined in MA as an entity which holds a Massachusetts license to sell firearms. Holding an FFL does not trigger it.
MA is not generally good about clear definitions, however, the situations under which one needs a MA dealer's license are precisely defined. If you sell/transfer more than 4 firearms in a calendar year, you need a MA dealer's license. Fewer than 4 and you do not.
This means that an FFL holder who sells 4 or fewer guns in a year does not need to hold a MA License to Sell Firearms, and is therefore not covered by the ch 180 list or AG consumer protection requirements.
Of course, since MA no longer allows home based FFL's, it's going to be hard to find someone who invested in an FFL who is willing to limit their sales and transfers to 4 per calendar year. If you find such a person, it's going to be even harder to convince them to use on of the 4 to do you a favor.
JonJ said:
Not exactly.
The MA chapter 180 gun certification requirements, as well as AG's double-secret requirements apply only to"purveyors of handguns". A purveyor of handguns is defined in MA as an entity which holds a Massachusetts license to sell firearms. Holding an FFL does not trigger it.
MA is not generally good about clear definitions, however, the situations under which one needs a MA dealer's license are precisely defined. If you sell/transfer more than 4 firearms in a calendar year, you need a MA dealer's license. Fewer than 4 and you do not.
This means that an FFL holder who sells 4 or fewer guns in a year does not need to hold a MA License to Sell Firearms, and is therefore not covered by the ch 180 list or AG consumer protection requirements.
Of course, since MA no longer allows home based FFL's, it's going to be hard to find someone who invested in an FFL who is willing to limit their sales and transfers to 4 per calendar year. If you find such a person, it's going to be even harder to convince them to use on of the 4 to do you a favor.
Re: loophole?
But the BATFE's definition of an 01 FFL is "DEALER in firearms other than destructive devices."
Therefore Mass would just fall back on the BATFE's defintion if the ambiguity of it's law were called into question.
We're talking about purchasing a handgun from out of state that is not Mass compliant. The firearm would have to be transfered via an 01 FFL (Dealer) and he could not leagaly do that.
If you only had a Mass license to sell firearms you would not be able to "import" from another state, right? Can you even have a Mass license to sell firearms without having an 01 FFL?
Rob Boudrie said:
But the BATFE's definition of an 01 FFL is "DEALER in firearms other than destructive devices."
Therefore Mass would just fall back on the BATFE's defintion if the ambiguity of it's law were called into question.
We're talking about purchasing a handgun from out of state that is not Mass compliant. The firearm would have to be transfered via an 01 FFL (Dealer) and he could not leagaly do that.
If you only had a Mass license to sell firearms you would not be able to "import" from another state, right? Can you even have a Mass license to sell firearms without having an 01 FFL?
There really isn't any ambiguity in Massachusetts law here, just reasonable confusion on the part of readers. When federal law talks about licenses and dealers, it means holders of an FFL. When Massachusetts uses similar terms in its laws, it means holders of the corresponding Massachusetts license. Since the Massachusetts license is only issued to people who are in the business of selling firearms, a holder of a Massachusetts license would have to hold a federal license as well. The converse doesn't hold precisely. Someone could be considered to be "in the business" by the feds are hold an FFL without necessarily selling more than 4 firearms per year to Massachusetts residents. Such a person wouldn't necessarily have to hold a Massachusetts license. Purchases of handguns from any out-of-state source would have to be through a Massachusetts holder of an FFL, though not necessarily through a holder of a Massachusetts dealer license. As stated earlier, the EOPS and AG rules apply only to the later.
Ken
