Sporterized 1873 Trapdoor in MA, bound book or not?

Ben Cartwright SASS

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I am buying a sporterized 1873 Trapdoor, rifle made into an Alaskan Guide rifle. It is an original 1873 and in every other state than Mass is an antique, however here in Mass it is not an antique since it uses commonly available cartridges. My dealer may or may not take my C&R for it since it was sporterized about 5 years ago (he knows the smith who did it) but I don't mind an FA10 on it.

The question is since Federally I think even though sporterized it is still an antique so I would think it should need to be in my bound book??
 
No. It is an antique in MA. All trapdoors are antique, the commonly available cartridge does not negate that. If its made prior to 1898 in MA it is an antique period. For federal its prior to 1899.

AFAIK the 'commonly available cartridge' thing refers to guns that were converted to use cartridges, not originally built to do so.

Antiques are not considered firearms per the feds to they don't go in the book.
 
It doesn't need a C&R or FA10 either. Sounds like the dealer is confusing this with a C&R that was sporterized and lost its C&R status.
 
IT IS NOT C&R TO BEGIN WITH!!! It is antique, not considered a firearm.
Right, I meant more generally that I wouldn't put something sporterized into my book.

I've run into more than a few people who are not aware that sporterizing negates C&R status, just like there's lots of people that don't realize "pre-94" doesn't necessarily mean it's "preban" as we commonly use the term.
 
I agree it is not a C&R because it was modified
BUT
I have to disagree with you all on Trapdoors being antiques. Below is the law from Massachusetts General Laws and the only way a cartridge gun is an antique is if the ammuntion is NO LONGER MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES. to my knowledge 45/70 is manufactured here still.

Federally an antique but not in Mass

Antiques and Replicas
An antique firearm is defined as any handgun, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof which is not designed for firing fixed ammunition or which uses fixed ammunition no longer manufactured in the United States and no longer readily available commercially.
 
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An antique firearm is defined as any handgun, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof which is not designed for firing fixed ammunition or which uses fixed ammunition no longer manufactured in the United States and no longer readily available commercially.

You missed the critical word in that definition - OR. You can stop after 1898 in that definition because it defines the trapdoor rifle. It is a rifle that was manufactured in or before 1898 period.

If you had something else that used "fixed ammo no longer manufactured or readily available" like say 41 rimfire, then it could be classified as an antique too despite not being made before 1898.

Hopefully that clears up the confusion with that definition. The term 'fixed ammunition' is stupid too, they should just say cartridge.
 
I have to agree that you are correct but now I have to try to convince the dealer who has the trapdoor (Mass dealer) that it IS an antique. I can do the FA10 if needed but shouldn't have to.

I will call GOAL on Monday, don't know if I want to bring it up to the FRB as it can open a can of worms, I would hate to be the reason they change it to an AND

I wonder how to find info to convince him
 
here is what I sent the dealer

Here is the actual wording from Ch 140 section 121, I was wrong, ANY gun made before 1898 is an antique while replicas are not.



The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;



So replicas are not antiques unless they use ammo no longer manufactured and not readily available.




So I was wrong to combine those sections
 
Only thing you need to worry yourself with is if it WAS produced before 1899/1898
Springfield Trapdoor Cartridge Rifle & Carbine

Now they way i read ATF book is ANY firearm 50 plus years old that you acquire goes in your Bound book.
Maybe me understanding of how laws a written is poor , but it seems like you can not use your CR license to aquire and dispose of CR elegible firearms that are not in thier "original" configuration?

So if its been deemed it was made prior to 1898/99 have it mailed right to you
 
It is also my understanding that C&R guns have to be in their original configuration to be a C&R. This was sporterized, however it was made in Jan 1874 so it is an antique even though it has a new stock
 
If it's an antique, it's not a firearm.
right firearms 50 years old. so if its a reproduction made some point after 1998/99 and is 50 years old you have to log it. OP established it is a pre 1998/99 so its a Antique and can be shipped right to him
 
I have to agree that you are correct but now I have to try to convince the dealer who has the trapdoor (Mass dealer) that it IS an antique. I can do the FA10 if needed but shouldn't have to.

I will call GOAL on Monday, don't know if I want to bring it up to the FRB as it can open a can of worms, I would hate to be the reason they change it to an AND

I wonder how to find info to convince him

I have had the same issue with a dealer before who read that law the same way and thought it was an AND statement rather than an OR statement and wouldn't ship here directly. Its easy to confuse it thinking all conditions apply when they don't.
 
The custom gunsmith was Edward A. Lander in Lakeville MA.

The dealer said he always logs all cartridge guns into his bound book and wants to do an FA10 to clear it off the books to me. I have no problem with that since I really want the gun and will drive down (about 50 miles) to pick it up.

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He makes more work for himself than he needs to. The book is federal not state, the FA10 is state not federal. Doing an FA10 for it doesn't "clear it" off his books. He could do that by entering your name and address in the book and handing you the rifle. But apparently he wants to waste a half hour doing 4473 and FA10 work that's unnecessary :rolleyes:
 
The custom gunsmith was Edward A. Lander in Lakeville MA.

The dealer said he always logs all cartridge guns into his bound book and wants to do an FA10 to clear it off the books to me. I have no problem with that since I really want the gun and will drive down (about 50 miles) to pick it up.

View attachment 422206View attachment 422207
Not worth it. Leave it there. Piece of junk.
I’ll make sure he gets rid of it. Damn I wish I saw that rifle before you.
 
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