Some data on precision AR-15s

Good to see that semi and true monolithics perform better than standard uppers. Everything I've seen and read has only mentioned the theoretical benefits of monos. Cool to see someone actually try and put some numbers behind it. I love seeing other dudes nerd out about this stuff, great job man.

I'm about to finesse a 18" bartlein barrel into my LWRC upper. It's good to know positional POI shift should be minimal and I'm not just tossing money away with my precision build when I could have easily gone with a standard non-mono upper.
 
Cool video : wish I had this kind of time.

Anyway I think a general flaw in the testing is over all accuracy/grouping

Getting consistent pre load is also going to be tough.
You also left out iron sighted platform , lol
In the end we all know consistency / repeatable fundamentals will carry you a long way.
Also need to think about end use
If your shooting torso size targets and just looking for hits on target you wont notice it that much , trying to destroy the X is a different game
POI shifts with ammo can be even worse….lol

I liked watching the results:

I found it interesting the POI shift often resulted in lower impacts
 
I'm always curious of these accuracy tests: wouldn't it be better if you eliminate the human factor by clamping the gun on a weighted vise?
 
I like you honest comments. I also watched your scope video…. Why didn’t you include a Razor G3 6-36x?
 
VTski4x4 said:
Funny - my DD rifles have proven in my experience to be wayyyyyy more accurate than I am. My DD5V4 is easily capable of sub-moa with quality ammo, and I've shot some extremely small 10 shot groups with it.
Click to expand...
I think for the most part for 99% of us the equipment is definitely capable of better than what we achieve.
Whenever I’m in doubt, whether a rifle or pistol I have is shooting poorly. I have two people I can go to and hand them the rifle of the pistol to proof it out.
I’m capable of shooting sub moa groups I’m just not capable of doing it frequently. And as I get older, it’s not getting easier.
 
Last edited:
50wt said:
Its a test to show poi shift between uppers when a human loads the bipod.
Click to expand...
But why , and how cone some are worse than others
Is it all deflection or is the pressure affecting the barrel harmonics?
You can see shift in poi with ammo change

I’m not 100% sure but I think all those uppers were free floating.
So where is the deflection ?
Is it on the rail ? Affecting the scope
Or is it deflection in the barrel/barrel nut/threads.
?
 
mac1911 said:
But why , and how cone some are worse than others
Is it all deflection or is the pressure affecting the barrel harmonics?
You can see shift in poi with ammo change

I’m not 100% sure but I think all those uppers were free floating.
So where is the deflection ?
Is it on the rail ? Affecting the scope
Or is it deflection in the barrel/barrel nut/threads.
?
Click to expand...

Standard AR15 handguards attach to the barrel nut. Any pressure on the handguards may produce unintended shifts in POI. Monolithic and semi monolithic uppers have handguards that attach to upper receiver itself and not via the barrel nut. In theory, there should less POI shift since pressure now affects the upper and not the barrel nut.

It could have been clearer but in OP's chart the LMT MRP and above are either mono or semi mono uppers. It may not be the most scientific test but it certainly indicates less POI shifts than standard AR15s. He could have used the same barrel among all uppers (some are proprietary so this would be difficult if not impossible), he could have shot off a sled and clamped the handguards, he could have used handloaded ammo to minimize deviations, he could have shot indoors to take out wind. Ultimately, we know mono and semi monos work. The question is how much does it matter?
 
F2386 said:
Standard AR15 handguards attach to the barrel nut. Any pressure on the handguards may produce unintended shifts in POI. Monolithic and semi monolithic uppers have handguards that attach to upper receiver itself and not via the barrel nut. In theory, there should less POI shift since pressure now affects the upper and not the barrel nut.

It could have been clearer but in OP's chart the LMT MRP and above are either mono or semi mono uppers. It may not be the most scientific test but it certainly indicates less POI shifts than standard AR15s. He could have used the same barrel among all uppers (some are proprietary so this would be difficult if not impossible), he could have shot off a sled and clamped the handguards, he could have used handloaded ammo to minimize deviations, he could have shot indoors to take out wind. Ultimately, we know mono and semi monos work. The question is how much does it matter?
Click to expand...
I might have missed any details on that.
I have not purchased anything in the AR world in some time.
If theres other methods for attaching free float rails/tubes to a AR lower other than utilizing the barrel nut threads I am ignorant to anything that bolts/mounts to the receiver
Plus not knowing if everyrhing was installed or torqued correctly ?
 
F2386 said:
The question is how much does it matter?
Click to expand...
This would be nice to know. So basically there is a POI shift depending on what the handguards are in contact with, where they are in contact with it, and how much pressure is being exerted.

All things that a lot of us believed would not happen with a free float barrel.

I think the OP made an important video. But what I’d like to see is how much of a shift given various different factors. How many MOA does my group shift if I’m using a bipod at the end of a 15” hand guard vs. if I have the mag well pressed up against a sand bag and no bipod.

We need more follow up testing. Of course, I ask for more follow up testing after making fun of the shape of his head. I apologize for that. I’ve got worse shape to my body than that head could ever be made fun of for.
 
mac1911 said:
So now we know it can shift but now “we” need to know just how much load and is it equal from gun to gun ?
Click to expand...
It depends a lot upon the model of upper and mount method for the handguard.
LaRues have no shift as mounts are flange to flange. No flex at all.
With my Aeros there are 2 different mount types. Bear creek is worst as handguard tightened around nut only and not in contact with upper.
 
LakeTrout said:
This would be nice to know. So basically there is a POI shift depending on what the handguards are in contact with, where they are in contact with it, and how much pressure is being exerted.

All things that a lot of us believed would not happen with a free float barrel.

I think the OP made an important video. But what I’d like to see is how much of a shift given various different factors. How many MOA does my group shift if I’m using a bipod at the end of a 15” hand guard vs. if I have the mag well pressed up against a sand bag and no bipod.

We need more follow up testing. Of course, I ask for more follow up testing after making fun of the shape of his head. I apologize for that. I’ve got worse shape to my body than that head could ever be made fun of for.
Click to expand...
Its NES if theres no ball busting how do we expect good results .
O have not personally seen much of any newer free float systems
I have a old school A2 National Match free float for service rifle and I doubt I sling up tight enough to pull my POI any more than my own ability not to hold ,
The other is a old school free float tube with just a sling stud bipod mount . My bipod pre load is just enough to take the “slop” out of the legs.
 
mac1911 said:
Its NES if theres no ball busting how do we expect good results .
O have not personally seen much of any newer free float systems
I have a old school A2 National Match free float for service rifle and I doubt I sling up tight enough to pull my POI any more than my own ability not to hold ,
The other is an old school free float tube with just a sling stud bipod mount . My bipod pre load is just enough to take the “slop” out of the legs.
Click to expand...
I saw this on my aero ar10 in .308 at 300 yds.
It is a part of a habit to do same amount of a shoulder pressure into the rifle.
 
paul73 said:
I saw this on my aero ar10 in .308 at 300 yds.
It is a part of a habit to do same amount of a shoulder pressure into the rifle.
Click to expand...
Comes down to knowing your gun/ammo/shooting
I know my groups will shift from slung prone to off hand position aprox 2 moa
 
50wt said:
Its a test to show poi shift between uppers when a human loads the bipod.
Click to expand...
You still need to eliminate as much human interaction as possible to get the true differences Humans get tired, blink, cramp up etc..I will bet a lot of money that if you use a high end vise the results would be different.

I appreciate the work the OP put into this, it's a good baseline to start a comparison between uppers.

All I need to do is hit a 6" area consistently from 100-150 yards so even a shit tier BCM would work for me :)
 
DarthRevan said:
So you’re the one getting all the Reddit attention
Click to expand...
I saw in analytics it got sent to Reddit but never saw the post. Hopefully it didn’t get too out of hand.
LakeTrout said:
Your head is kind of wide in the back compared to how narrow it is in the front. No? Especially when you look down. Have a look. Is that normal?
Click to expand...
My head is a really weird shape. Not sure what’s up with that.
LuvDog said:
I like you honest comments. I also watched your scope video…. Why didn’t you include a Razor G3 6-36x?
Click to expand...
Because I don’t have one??
 
lukewarm_fuzz said:
Actually you know what, I could totally put something ahead of the bipod feet that measures pressure, like I could load into something vertical that has a sensor. That’s a really interesting idea.
Click to expand...
I know it goes a little deep and beyond what the average joe can do
Also be cool if you could put some sort of strain gauge or deflection sensor on the upper where it connects. To the receiver.

Even some sort of pressure sensor on the recoil pad . We humans are not a good judge of strength .
 

Similar threads

2024 in Review at Derr Precision
Replies
8
Views
353
fencer
fencer
Looking for custom engraving on O/U shotgun
Replies
5
Views
155
tinhorn
tinhorn
Help on which Rifle to choose
Replies
18
Views
456
P. Lopes
P. Lopes
Keep One, Sell One
Replies
12
Views
365
Mark from ?
M
Springfield Armory 1911 TRP 10MM
Replies
1
Views
126
The Anchor
The Anchor
Back
Top Bottom