Snub Revolver Courses

[hbennett]

Hi. I'm hbennett, and new to the forum.

I'd like to add yet another endorsement to Michael DeBethencourt's snub revolver courses. I just completed 2 days of snub training at the S&W academy last weekend (8/12-8/13). The courses are "Essentials of the Defensive Snub Revolver" and "Mastering the Defensive Snub Revolver". "Essentials" establishes the fundamentals and "Mastering" builds upon them. Both courses are well worth the price of admission.

It is obvious that Mr. DeBethencourt has a passion for the subject material, and is a very animated and enthusiastic instructor. Both classes were scheduled to run from 0900 to 1630, but actually ran until nearly 1800.

Although the course was about defensive shooting, the bulk of the shooting was done on the first day. Our class was learing so many nifty techniques and enjoying the drills so much that we requested that we minimize or eliminate the shooting portion of day 2 and concentrate on the drills.

This is not to say that there was anything wrong with the shooting component of the course, quite opposite in fact. However, on day 1 we all proved that we could make our snubbies do what was required of them. We also demonstrated the ability to improve. It was generally felt that we could practice marksmanship on our own time and at our home ranges. We believed that class time was better spent learning what Mr. DeBethancourt could impart upon us.

The course curriculum included and in no particular order:

Drawing and manipulating the snubbie.
Customizations -- those that are handy, and those that could get you killed.
ammo choices.
grip choices.
holster choices.
speed loading drills
clearing drills
Shooting and moving drills.
use as an emergency impact weapon.
Other things you "need" to carry.
one-handed loading technique
un-training the conditioned habits that could get you killed.
how to make your snubbie go "bang" should someone grab
the cylinder.
The reality of shooting through clothing.
and a whole lot more....

The course and the drills were approached with a "train as you would fight"
mindset. Student mistakes were pointed out and corrected. For particularly egregious offenses, "punishment" was dealt in the form of a group hug.. mistakes were NOT repeated..

Mr. DeBethencourt did his very best to instill a winning mindset in the students. It was stressed that giving up is not an option.

Questions were encouraged. There doesn't appear to be much if anything Mr. DeBethencourt does not know about the topic of snubbies and their employment. He is also a wealth of information about gun fights in general.

Also, as a bonus, Mr. DeBethencourt gave us a sampling of his "Defensive Folding Knife" course. He demonstrated 3 techniques, all of which made us gasp and grimace..evil, nasty and effective stuff. I plan on taking that course some time in the future as well.

I could go on and on, but suffice it to say that since this course is taught locally, you do yourself a disservice if you own and carry a snubby and have not taken it. I was amazed at things I was able to do with my SP-101 by the end of the 2 days. My level of confidence in my ability with my snubbie has increased immensely. Invest in the training. Learn to get the most out of this under-rated defensive tool. You will not be sorry.

 

[dreppucci007]

Hey hbennett! Welcome to NES. Thanks for the great review of the course.

 

[TY43215]

Excellent review

You gave an excellent review. I have taken the class.

Michaels courses are indeed well presented BUT, his snub nose course has many aspects I did not think were safe practices. Be very careful what you choose to practice.

I have carried a revolver since 1974 and was certified as a revolver instructor in 1981. I strongly disagree with many things Michael teaches in his class.

Use what works well for you but take nothing as the gospel truth.

His defensive knife class is another story. Best I have ever taken.

Regards,

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I have carried a revolver since 1974 and was certified as a revolver instructor in 1981.

Just curious - who certified revolver instructors?

 

[JWalker]

I also attended Michael's course last week at S & W academy on Saturday.

He is indeed very animated, knowledgable, and teaches at a fast pace.

It takes a while to absorb all the information, but overall it was time and money well spent.

I'm fairly new to snubby's but left with a good feeling and more confidence in my abilities at close shooting distances.

 

[M1911]

Round Gun Shooter: Would you be willing to expand on your remarks? What techniques of his do you disagree with and why?

I have not taken his course. A friend of mine did and had some reservations, but I haven't gotten any detail from him.

 

[TY43215]

Just curious - who certified revolver instructors?

Mass Criminal Justice Training Counsel 80 hour course.

 

[TY43215]

Round Gun Shooter: Would you be willing to expand on your remarks? What techniques of his do you disagree with and why?

I have not taken his course. A friend of mine did and had some reservations, but I haven't gotten any detail from him.

This is not the place for that. When we shoot together again, I will gladly answer your questions.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mod Hat On!

RGS,

It is appropriate to discuss your likes/dislikes in the other Training (Techniques) forum here.

I strongly suggest that you do so, just discussing tactics and why or why not something is a good idea.

That's the reason we set up these forums, so please share your info with all of us?

Thanks.
The Management

 

[FPrice]

I have watched (and been involved in) some rather contentious debates online concerning well-known shooting instructors and experts. My personal opinion is that these experts need to have a somewhat thick skin when it comes to discussions of tactics and methods which they espouse and the reasons they teach this way.

Please notice that I said "discussions of tactics and methods" and not "discussions about personality and/or experience or lack thereof". Too often such discussions, if not closely monitored by board moderators can quickly degrade into personal attacks rather than intellectual discussion. One very well known New England personality often becomes the subject of such discussions on another popular board.

Having said that:

Michaels courses are indeed well presented BUT, his snub nose course has many aspects I did not think were safe practices. Be very careful what you choose to practice.

If you can point out where you disagree with Mr. DeBethencourt, why you disagree, and offer a sustainable alternative then I would have to disagree with your later comment, " This is not the place for that.".

Perhaps there are perfectly good reasons (albeit unknown to me) that you prefer not to discuss your differences publicly. In that case I would defer to your judgement. But one of the major reasons for a board such as NES is to share information, and if necessary, cuss and discuss our differences, as long as we can end the discussion on a positive respectful note.

 

[TY43215]

Against my better judgment, I will elaborate so as not to appear to just be bashing the course.

I will pick out only a few points I have disagreed with:

1. Michael touts the use of a hammer type revolver with a hammer shroud. Use of an add on hammer shroud has been proven in use on the street to be very unreliable. They have sharp edges, collect dirt and lint and prevent inspection of the hammer so as to be able to assure full travel. The designer of a shroud was in my class. His wife used a revolver with the shroud and needed to bandage her hand to stop the flow of blood.

2. The thought that ported revolvers are dangerous. I have carried and shot ported revolvers since 1990. I currently carry a S&W Airlite Ty 357MAG revolver that is ported. Best little revolver I have ever owned for self defense. As with anything there are training techniques and ammo selection that are necessary. Porting makes a short barreled, light weight full power revolver manageable with proper grips.

3. Grip choice- All of what Michael had to say as far as I was concerned on this topic was a misnomer. His Monkey and coconut analogy was funny, but ridiculous. I have used a large wood grip that fits my hand on revolvers carried in a pocket holster. They work. I have used the same S&W Sile grips and transfer them revolver to revolver. They allow accurate shots and quick follow up shots. On his 50 yard course, I had no misses.

4. Ultra light weight frames- No problem with proper ammo selection (He contradicts one of his best points on several occasions ACLU Ammo)

5. Modifications to revolvers. Thumb latch is fine as is, if I were changing, I would go to SDM thumb piece not the old style. From the advent of speed loaders, many of us that were concerned have cut and shaped the thumb latch to what is now the current shape as offered by the factory. The purpose for the new design was speed loader clearance.

6. Bobbed hammers giving light strikes. I was trained as a S&W Armorer at the factory. Bobbing a hammer if done properly, adds to reliability of primer strike on a S&W revolver of any frame style or size. Check any of my revolvers from my carry guns to my game guns. Guess what, no hammer spurs. Changing the geometry of a revolver hammer is not rocket science but it takes care and patience.

7. Reloading technique is being taught just because it is different. There was no good reason given for it and it makes no sense to me. It goes against all of my training and experience. That is a show and tell thing to explain. But, to reload fully facing an opponent makes no sense. Micheal uses a Police Officer wearing a vest as his reason for exposing full front while reloading. How many of you wear a vest on a day to day basis that are not LEO on duty? Reloading while moving makes more sense to me. Using speed loaders and being proficient with them makes sense to me. Speed strips are a last resort reload for me. Edit to add: While you are facing me unloading your revolver, I will put at least 2 rounds COM from my second gun with my weak hand. You are over exposed.

8. Using the snub as an impact weapon. If you are that close and need to strike, you really did something wrong and are screwed anyway. Using a firearm as a bat is asking for trouble. You should have had a better plan from the start.

9. Using the realistic practice ammo he has in class is one of the most dangerous things I have ever seen. It is difficult to tell them from the real thing. Some day, someone will make a mistake. If nothing else, they need to be painted red, orange, or any other distinguishing color.

As you can see I am a bit critical. Michael has found a way to make money and is not challenged by anyone on his qualifications or on his approach. That is fine. He is entertaining and likable which gives him an edge for the people seeking training.

He is knowledgeable on disarming techniques and gives a great knife course. I have taken the knife course and highly recommend it.

This is my opinion only and should be taken with a grain of salt. I am not an expert only a student who has been studying for some time.

I have no plans of turning this into a question and answer session and I do not wish to offend anyone with my remarks. Michael's classes fill a void. All I am trying to make clear is as with all training, keep an open mind. Use what works for you and discard the rest. For me, I feel I wasted my time at the Snub course.

Regards,

Gary

 

[M1911]

Thanks for expanding on your remarks. I appreciate it and now understand more about your concerns.

All I am trying to make clear is as with all training, keep an open mind. Use what works for you and discard the rest.

Indeed. I've taken classes from a number of different individuals and my techniques continue to evolve. I've most always learned something, but I typically pick and choose from their teachings.

For example, I've gone away from Ayoob's "crush-style" grip on the gun. I don't agree with Gunsite's "toss the gun to change your grip so you can push the mag release harder" technique and won't use it -- I can reach the mag release without changing my grip and it is faster and more secure not changing my grip during a reload. I continue to use the slide-stop during an emergency reload -- it is faster than using the overhand method of releasing the slide and I have not missed it under stress.

 

[TY43215]

I can reach the mag release without changing my grip and it is faster and more secure not changing my grip during a reload.

what's a mag release????????????????????

(couldn't resist)

 

[dwarven1]

Gary - thanks for the critique. Lots of interesting points that you make.

 

[Len-2A Training]

As for ported short guns.

It was Randy Cain or Gabe Suarez last year that pointed out a problem with these guns, a well-endowed female and firing from a retention grip.

The instructor borrowed a student's ported Glock and showed all of us what the problem for her could be firing from retention. She immediately switched guns to a non-ported Glock.

I think that the point is well taken that carrying a ported gun for self-defense has potential problems (even for males) if you can't keep your hands extended (perp is close in and you are trying to keep control of your gun without exposing it to a "grab").

 

[TY43215]

As for ported short guns.

It was Randy Cain or Gabe Suarez last year that pointed out a problem with these guns, a well-endowed female and firing from a retention grip.

The instructor borrowed a student's ported Glock and showed all of us what the problem for her could be firing from retention. She immediately switched guns to a non-ported Glock.

I think that the point is well taken that carrying a ported gun for self-defense has potential problems (even for males) if you can't keep your hands extended (perp is close in and you are trying to keep control of your gun without exposing it to a "grab").

It is a problem stated by many. I have found with proper ammo I can shoot from retention with no problems. I use Gold Dot ammo or National Cartridge Frangible ammo. No spatter with either and both have low flash.

As for the female, I would like to see pics of that demonstration

 

[Len-2A Training]

Nobody took pictures of that demo . . . the male instructor did the demo. However, the lady in question was well endowed, that I assure you.

Truthfully, the hot gases could burn even a guy when held like we were taught, so I'd not be in favor of ported guns except for range work.

 

[M1911]

Do you know that they would burn? Or are we just making assumptions, based on pictures?

 

[FPrice]

Do you know that they would burn? Or are we just making assumptions, based on pictures?

Think about what is coming out of those ports, gas from burning gun powder.

Also think about some of the demonstrations of shooting through clothing such as a jacket pocket. In many cases the clothing has been known to start smoldering or catch on fire. At least as reported by those who have performed these demonstrations.

 

[TY43215]

Do you know that they would burn? Or are we just making assumptions, based on pictures?

If you want to try my MagnaPort Air lite, ask if we ever meet again. I pretty much always have it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

M1911, were you in that class with me last year?

All I can say for certain is that once the instructor explained the potential for a problem, nobody wanted to argue with him or even try it to see what would really happen.

It makes logical sense.

 

[M1911]

Len: I was in a class with you last year. I don't remember the incident being described.

I only have 1 gun that is ported -- a S&W 629 V-comp with a 5" barrel. It's not exactly what I would use for concealed carry

My question is this. Presuming a ported gun has advantages, is this danger really that significant or is it, perhaps, being exagerated? Is it mostly an issue that you'll singe some clothes during practice?

For example, Ayoob has suggested that it is possible to shoot a snubnose revolver while it is in your coat pocket -- he has, in fact, done it. It will ruin the coat, but the coat's not going to catch on fire and kill you. So in extremis, it is a technique that can be used. If I'm in a gunfight, the last thing I would be worried about is that I'd ruin my coat.

It seems to me that it is more of a potential problem than a real one.

 

[TY43215]

My question is this. Presuming a ported gun has advantages, is this danger really that significant or is it, perhaps, being exaggerated? Is it mostly an issue that you'll singe some clothes during practice?

SNIP

It seems to me that it is more of a potential problem than a real one.

I am not Len but since I am the advocate of ported guns, here is my story.

Most trainers that I have seen that are against ported guns do not own one. They continue to spout the myth as taught to them. They have some good sounding arguments based on what they have been taught and not usually on what they have experienced. I point to Len's statement as evidence of this.

The instructor borrowed a student's ported Glock and showed all of us what the problem for her could be firing from retention. She immediately switched guns to a non-ported Glock.

I think that the point is well taken that carrying a ported gun for self-defense has potential problems (even for males) if you can't keep your hands extended (perp is close in and you are trying to keep control of your gun without exposing it to a "grab").

Note it says what the problem could be. Was an actual demonstration given??

I have shot from retention with a Pro Port revolver( one port straight up) and a MagNaPort revolver (ports on side of the top of the barrel). There are ways to do this which out way any adverse affects you think Could happen. REMEMBER, we are talking revolver here. A lot of the gasses escape from the cylinder gap. Using the theory of a semi auto is not the same in practice with a revolver.


Here is what we need to do. We need to find a club somewhere that is easily accessible to whomever wants to play. Lets try some of the Snub drills and different equipment and see what works and what doesn't. No classroom, just range. You show me yours, I'll show you mine. Some time after mid September is best for me.

We can continue plans for this in the members section

Regards,

 

[depicts]

Thanks for all the input in this thread. I've yet to take a snub course, but this thread has convinced me I must.

If that is the only thing it has accomplished, it's a worthwhile thread.

Gary...thanks for the critique. I like a man who can back up his words.

LenS and M1911....good inpput.

thanks

Bill

 

[hbennett]

Folks,

Thanks for the lively discussion. Give the dialogue thus far, I still recommend the course. Everyone needs to start someplace. That being said, I still intend to seek out and persue training with other instructors for the sake of differing opinions. One course is not the way to attain knowledge in any subject. Approach martial arts training with an open mind as my instructor used to say. Take what works, and dump what doesn't.

RG, if you ever run a class, or know of one you recommend, please let us know.

-hbennett

 

[Len-2A Training]

M1911, I just checked and this occurred in the Gabe Suarez course in 2005.

The lady I referred to was rather "well endowed" and shooting a ported Glock, probably a G23. With the drill we were about to do, the end of the barrel of the G23 was likely to be not more than an inch or so beyond her breast, and maybe 2" under it. Don't know about you, but she was very rapidly convinced without gunfire that this was probably going to be "hotter" than she wanted and she converted to a non-ported Glock for the rest of the class. Her Father owns a gun shop in VT and she works there part-time, I think that Nickle knows her or at least her Father. I invited her to join us here last year but I don't think she ever signed up on NES.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Against my better judgment, I will elaborate so as not to appear to just be bashing the course.

I will pick out only a few points I have disagreed with:

. . .

8. Using the snub as an impact weapon. If you are that close and need to strike, you really did something wrong and are screwed anyway. Using a firearm as a bat is asking for trouble. You should have had a better plan from the start.

. . .

Regards,

Gary

Gary

I find myself in pretty much full agreement with most everything you said here. Having fallen under the evil influence of Bill Jordan's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER early in my shooting career - "I'll take a revolver, YOU take your chances." - my gun of choice for many, many years was a Ruger Security-Six with Magna Porting and a bobbed hammer.

(It's only been in the last few years that I've accepted that these new-fangled flat guns aren't just a passing fad.)

But I do disagree with point eight, above. A sidearm is a REACTIVE weapon. If you're PLANNING on being in a fight, bring your rifle or shotgun. And in our modern urban settings, it's hardly possible to keep sufficient free space around us at all times. So finding oneself in a CQB doesn't neccesarily demonstrate a lack of proper planning on your part.

Regards
John

In God I Trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them!

 

[TY43215]

Gary

I find myself in pretty much full agreement with most everything you said here. Having fallen under the evil influence of Bill Jordan's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER early in my shooting career - "I'll take a revolver, YOU take your chances." - my gun of choice for many, many years was a Ruger Security-Six with Magna Porting and a bobbed hammer.

(It's only been in the last few years that I've accepted that these new-fangled flat guns aren't just a passing fad.)

But I do disagree with point eight, above. A sidearm is a REACTIVE weapon. If you're PLANNING on being in a fight, bring your rifle or shotgun. And in our modern urban settings, it's hardly possible to keep sufficient free space around us at all times. So finding oneself in a CQB doesn't neccesarily demonstrate a lack of proper planning on your part.

Regards
John

In God I Trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them!

One of my favorite books.

As for the plan, I am not referring to

PLANNING on being in a fight

I am referring to your need for a plan at all times in case a fight or flight situation arises.

Regards,

 

[The Goose]

Folks,

Thanks for the lively discussion. Give the dialogue thus far, I still recommend the course. Everyone needs to start someplace. That being said, I still intend to seek out and persue training with other instructors for the sake of differing opinions. One course is not the way to attain knowledge in any subject. Approach martial arts training with an open mind as my instructor used to say. Take what works, and dump what doesn't.

RG, if you ever run a class, or know of one you recommend, please let us know.

-hbennett

Good comment. We all do need to start somewhere. I took Michael's snubby class last year and really enjoyed it, but I have only been shooting for a couple of years. It was eye opening for me. Round Gun Shooters comments really help to get some balance, however, and makes one think. My goal is to attend at least two training seminars every year (and hopefully more). I just know that I have a lot to learn Thanks for the great dialog.

 

[striped1]

As for ported short guns.

a well-endowed female and firing from a retention grip.

The instructor borrowed a student's ported Glock and showed all of us what the problem for her could be firing from retention. She immediately switched guns to a non-ported Glock.

").

We could use some photos of this..