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snub-nose question

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It seems that the new snubs like the S&W 642 --hammerless and light--have deflated the market for older, hammered-and-heavy snubs. I'm a cheap bastard, and $200-$250 for a gun is probably the ideal price-point. I'm big enough that the weight wouldn't be a problem. Assuming that I don't care about the weight, and that I would be open to the idea of removing the hammer spur if necessary, are there any reasons to not pick up an older SW snub?

Follow-up question. I am a poor-to-moderate shot. If I can test-fire the gun, what range should I try it out at to see whether the gun is accurate enough? It is conceivable that any modern gun that is mechanically sound will shoot better than I will.

Thanks,

Jeremiah
 
Jeremiah,

Since you belong to Braintree R&P, and the closest range allowed on the outdoor pistol range is 7.5 yds . . .

Practice shooting it at 7.5 yds until you get proficient. You won't be taking on attackers in MA at 50' or you won't have a good position in any court proceedings!
 
Len is right on the money with regard to yardage. Statistically as you probably know most armed encounters happen at seven yards or less. As far as an older snub goes, no problem with that either. The new breed of lightweight snubbies are of the "carry a lot', "shoot little" variety, in my opinion, because for the most part they just aren't fun to shoot for the majority of people who own them, at least from what I have observed.

Personally I have never cared much for any of the "J" frame Smiths, but back in the day, a Chief's was THE police back-up weapon and plainclothes carry weapon. It's fans were legion, and although I suppose by today's standards a traditionally manufactured Model 36 or Model 60 represents older technology, it is very good technology, indeed. One of these older style snubbies will definitely get you through the night.

My personal choice has always been the Detective Special. At the sunset of Colt's double action revolver manufacturig in the middle 90's, it came out with the Detective Special II and finally a stainless .357 Magnum version. In hindsight, I wish I would have picked up examples of either or both. Today, my primary carry weapon is a Ruger SP101 DAO. I don't mind the weight, and find that I can control that revolver fairly well, and the "feel" is quite reminiscent of a Detective Special (my DS is semi-retired now as are all of my Colt Revolvers).

Now what I am about to say now, may evoke some yikes and cripes from our distinguished forum of dedicated pistoleros, but in the past few years I have heeded the advice of Massad Ayoob when it comes to defensive revolvers. Now, whether you love him or hate him, his experience as an expert witness (usually for the defense) in shooting incident trials, has given him a unique perspective on the legal system and how it relates to The Few, The Proud (I don't mean Marines here, but lawfully armed private citizens) who find themselves enmeshed in draconian gun laws and in courts presided over by hopolophobic judges, with overzealous prosecutors who think the Second Amendment is about duck hunting, and juries whose concept of firearms comes from watching too many cop show reruns on cable. Mas advocates that any personal defense revolver be converted to DAO if it isn't already in that mode. His reasoning is that there have been just way too many prosecuters who have alleged that the evil perpetrator (translated: the lawfully armed citizen, who in fear of his or her life, discharged their lawfully owned weapon against a real evil perpetrator) cocked the weapon and the resulting single action "hair trigger" allowed the weapon to discharge and thus, the shooter displayed reckless and wanton disregard for human life. Having a DAO revolver eliminates one more arguments for the prosecution. Since you have already indicated that you will probably have the hammer spur ground down, I'd say go ahead and have the revolver converted to DAO at the same time, as it still might be possible to thumb cock the revolver even with the spur ground down.

Key to developing proficiency with a snubbie is to practice, and to practice with the loads that you will use in the real world. Personally I have come to like the Remington 125 gr +P .38 Spec. because for me it is controllable and accurate. Speer has a new load for short barreled revolvers: a 135 gr +P .38 Spec., I tried a box of those in my Ruger last Monday up in Manchester, and found them not to be as accurate as the Remingtons in my particular gun. Yes, I have fired .357s in my Ruger, but have better controllability with the +P 38's.

With regard to +P's in older Chief's, my understanding is that they will take it provided they were made after 1958, but it is a good idea to have a gunsmith (preferably a S&W trained armorer) check it out every thousand rounds or so for frame stretching and forcing cone erosion. Colt, I believe always said check the DS at 3000 rounds if firing +P's.

Now folks today, have their Kahrs and mini-Glocks (at least the folks who don't live in Massachusetts [lol]) chopped down .45's and such. I have nothing against these guns at all, but as I get older I get more retro, and I really do appreciate the simplicity and everyday realiability of the revolver. I think getting an older snubbie, in good shape, at a fair price is a great way to go.

Regards,

Mark
 
I have an old S&W Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard Special. Has the shrouded hammer. Great little piece for an ankle holster or carried in a pocket. I've used it on targets at 50' but it sure wasn't designed for that distance.
 
Thanks for the advice. Interesting point about making a revolver DAO for legal reasons.

I'm not sure I'm committed, yet, to buying another gun, but you guys confirmed something that was knocking around in the back of my head for a bit: there's no strong reason (for me, at least) to have to get the latest-and-greatest tech. in snubs. I'll keep an eye on the older models for a good deal.
 
mark056 said:
The new breed of lightweight snubbies are of the "carry a lot', "shoot little" variety, in my opinion, because for the most part they just aren't fun to shoot for the majority of people who own them.

Y'know, I keep hearing people saying this. I've owned a Charter Arms snubbie (now gracing C-pher's safe) and now a J-frame Airweight. I don't understand!!!

They're a blast to shoot. Lots of fun, controllable... not the most accurate thing at 25 yards, but then, neither am I! Closer in, they're great fun to shoot.

You want something to punish your hand, try my COP .357 with .357's in it. About 8 shots a session is all I really want to shoot! It's much happier with .38's in it, though.

Maybe it's the ammo. I haven't tried the Airweight with +P's yet (even though it's OK to use them). I just haven't gotten around to purchasing some. So many guns, so little time...
 
I've got a S&W 642 -- that's a 16 oz .38 Spcl. AL DAO J-frame. The rear sight is a shallow gutter in the top strap (really shallow). The front sight is relatively low. The trigger pull is long. With 158gr ammo I find that it simply hurts to shoot. Perhaps it is the size of my hand or how I shoot it. I find that my trigger finger ends up smacking the trigger guard during recoil.

The most I've put through it during one visit to the range is maybe 50 rounds tops. It's NOT fun to shoot. It hurts. And I'm NOT accurate with it. A gun that hurts to shoot is a gun that you will not practice with very often. It is light and easy to conceal. YMMV.

Dwarven1, if you are who I think you are, then we were at the Randy Cain class together earlier this year. I was at the far right of the line. I think you'll agree that I'm a fair shot. Just not with a snubbie :(

I'm a far, far better shot with my Kahr MK9. That conceals just as well as my 642. Unfortunately, it is heavier and heavy stuff in my pockets doesn't work well with my disappearing waist...I spend all day pulling up my pants.

I've also got a 3" Model 60. That's a stainless steel .357 J-frame, with a real rear sight. With .38 Spcl of any variety, the 60 is very easy to shoot and does not hurt at all. It's quite accurate. I'm sure that a snubbie Model 60 without a rear sight would be harder to shoot accurately, but the heavy weight will make it comfortable to shoot with .38s. It's a bit light for .357s for my taste.

I've also got a ~2" Ruger SP-101 in .38 Spcl. It's heavy, built like a tank. The gutter in the top strap is a bit deaper than the 642, so it is a bit easier to shoot accurately. The heavy weight makes it comfortable to shoot, but less comfortable to carry. If you need a hammer and all you have is revolver, then the Ruger is they way to go :p, but I'm S&W fan myself.
 
M1911 said:
Perhaps it is the size of my hand or how I shoot it. I find that my trigger finger ends up smacking the trigger guard during recoil.

That may be the issue here. Like my namesake (and my avatar), I'm short but pretty stocky. And my fingers are short and thick, too. So perhaps it's just the luck of biology that my hands are shaped to shoot this type of gun without pain. I know that crfriend, who's about 8 or 9 inches taller than me, can't shoot some of my guns simply because his fingers are too long and wrap uncomfortably around the grips!

Just my $.02, but if a gun is not fun for you to shoot, perhaps it should get sold and one that fits your hand better purchased in it's place. I know that that's one reason I'll never own a S&W auto, or a Beretta... they're just shaped wrong for my hand.

M1911 said:
Dwarven1, if you are who I think you are, then we were at the Randy Cain class together earlier this year.

I'm not who you think I am... I wish I had been able to take Randy Cain's class. [cry]
 
OK, so, when I was at the range today, and I took a good look at the snub that's been in the case since at least May:
SW36, Cheif's Special (exposed hammer) with holster and some other extras (speedloaders?): $225. Probably 30 years old. Nice blue finish with wear character...
I was talking with the range officer, and he mentioned that another guy was selling his very recent (no more than a few years old) snub:
SW Airweight (I think 642, but I'm not sure), hammerless, .38 for $300. I assume that this deal is just for gun and box.

What do you think? Older model for probably $200 and I might end up spending money to alter it or buy a hammerless later. Or, new model for $100 more and it would probably be the last snub I'd Need to buy.

I could also skip both. As I said, I'm not 100% in a buying mood, but both seem like good deals. The 36 isn't going anywhere, but the Airweight is new-to-market so I don't know whether it's going to move or not.

I like how I went from talking about it yesterday, to checking the bank account today. But, that's how it goes...
 
I’ll take quality over quantity any day. When I bought my Bushy I could get the striped down model for $700 and change. But for an extra $125-150 I got the model that I really wanted. I don’t regret my decision one bit. I know if I got the other one I would already of dumped more money into it making it the gun I originally wanted. I know pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles but in the end guns are guns.
 
Jeremiah said:
I was talking with the range officer, and he mentioned that another guy was selling his very recent (no more than a few years old) snub:
SW Airweight (I think 642, but I'm not sure), hammerless, .38 for $300. I assume that this deal is just for gun and box.

Speaking from someone who has been trying to buy a used 642 for some time... If it is a 642, $300 is the going price for a good condition used 642. If there is one for sale, and you think you might like it, grab it quick.. They never last more than a couple of days in the case at Four Seasons.

If you don't like it, you can always turn around and sell it for what you paid for it.

Adam
 
Myself, I'd go for the 36, and not just for the good price including holster and speedloaders. I'm a fool for blued steel and wooden grips. :D

Nothing wrong with my Charter Arms "Undercover" either.
f18cafe1.jpg


As always, it's all about familiarity and shot placement under stress. And the small "underpowered" gun you can carry comfortably concealed, will always outperform the big boomer you left in the safe. [wink]
 
I've got a S&W Model 360PD - an Airweight (12 ounce) .357 Magnum j-frame revolver.

With 158 grain .357 Magnum rounds, it does hurt like hell - the comment most often heard when I let someone shoot it is "OUCH!". I've had more than a couple of people shoot exactly two rounds out of it and then hand it back to me.

Shooting 125 grain .38 special target loads, though, it's no worse than my dad's model 36 Chief's special.

The beauty of the 360 is that, at 12 ounces, it comes with me a LOT. Even in the summer, it's light enough to put in a pocket holster in a pair of cargo shorts.
 
dwarven1 said:
Just my $.02, but if a gun is not fun for you to shoot, perhaps it should get sold and one that fits your hand better purchased in it's place.
Sell a gun? Go wash out your mouth with soap, young man. Guns are for buying, not selling.
 
M1911 said:
dwarven1 said:
Just my $.02, but if a gun is not fun for you to shoot, perhaps it should get sold and one that fits your hand better purchased in it's place.
Sell a gun? Go wash out your mouth with soap, young man. Guns are for buying, not selling.

Nope. Sorry, gotta disagree with you. If you don't shoot it and you don't like it, get rid of it. Get something you like more with the $$ you get from selling it.

I've sold 6 guns; I only regret selling one of them. 3 of them I upgraded to something similar that fit me better, and two of them I couldn't wait to celebrate after they were gone.
 
I've got 50+ guns. There's plenty that haven't been shot in a while. That doesn't mean I'd put them out in the cold.

Perish the thought.
 
I expect I'll find that snubs, in particular, are not particularly sentimental objects and may get sold periodically. Everything sacrificed for functionality.

Offered $200 for the SW36, btw. I'll probably hear back from the guy by Saturday about whether he'll take the lower price. The grip was longer than the 642 and my pinky wasn't floating below the gun. Also, "cheap bastard" won over "tech freak". When the range officer took it out of the display case, it turned out that the wear was worse on the non-display side. Bummer, but I'll try to remember to just show b.g.s the prettier side.
 
Weer'd beard said:
dwarven1: Just out of curiocity, what were the guns you were happy to see the back of?

One was an AMT Hardballer with feed problems, made worse by the fumble-fingered idiot at a shop in Natick that's out of business (big surprise there!), and the other was a shot out Colt .357 - I've seen that model referred to as a "pre-Trooper". It's also the reason that I'd be very wary of ever buying a gun from Gun Room again.

The one I regret selling, as I've mentioned here before, was my first gun, a Model 19. At least it's got a good home, though.

Ross
 
Well, I guess I could understand that. AMT Hardballers are not something I'd be interested in and you won't get me to part with my model 19 (or 66).
 
My Mod 19 is with the guy I call my brother. Fitz is more like my brother than the other son of my parents is. Fitz is someone who if he called me, I'd go. Wherever, whenever. Whatever he needs.

So at least I know that Flametongue has a good home. Right in Fitz's bedside table, stoked with 6 125 gr JSP's.

I have a 66 now... but it's not the same. [cry]
 
dwarven1 said:
Just my $.02, but if a gun is not fun for you to shoot, perhaps it should get sold and one that fits your hand better purchased in it's place.

I've got to agree with Ross on this count. If a gun isn't fun (or comfortable) to shoot, it won't get shot, you won't practise with it, and you'll never get proficient with it.

I've held some of Ross' pieces, and I can't get a good grip on some of them; I also have bad memories of an Airweight I got to shoot in the Basic Pistol Marksmanship course -- every time I'd touch the thing off the trigger guard would smack my trigger-finger right at the base of the nail -- and I can tell you, that hurt. So, that's one form of iron I'll never sport 'cause I'd never practise with it.
 
Totally understand that!

My friend has small hands, so he has difficulty working the controls of my 1911, and the Beavertail safety does NOT agree with his hand at all.

So he's let me know that he has ZERO interest in my beloved .45. But now he's charged me with finding him a handgun that fits him better.

Sounds like a fun task to me! 8) I think his girlfriend's father will also like to help me out (He's got a BEAUTIFUL Taurus .357, and a Sig Saur...he may like thems better)

Arrrr

-Weer'd Beard
 
Weer'd Beard said:
So he's let me know that he has ZERO interest in my beloved .45. But now he's charged me with finding him a handgun that fits him better.

FWIW, my Mod 19 was a square frame and I put a pair of Siles rubber grips on it. They're definitely different than the Hogue monogrip; the Hogue is OK but really doesn't feel as good to me as the Siles did. I don't know if Siles even still makes grips; I can't seem to find any reference to them any more.
 
I am a huge guy with massive hands, and I LOVE J-frame Smiths. I regret selling the two I used to have. They are just plain fun to shoot, assuming you are fireing "soft" loads.

Right now the only revolver I have is a Mod 10 S&W. Great gun, but not as easy to carry as the J's are and for some reason the "fun" factor at the range just is not as high.


Sold your AMT Hardballer???? The one I sold I regret badlly. Not that it was particularlly accurate. It even had a LOT of slide bite to deal with since it had a srup instead of a real beaver tail. But is was just plain fun to shoot, and it was one of those guns you feel comfortable taking in the woods with now worry about hurting it......it was just plain fun and handy. I wish I still had it.
 
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