SMLE rifles

[greencobra]

guys, as i've stated many times, i'm not really a rifle shooter...never mind getting into mil surp. i had 40 years ago, an '03 A3 i picked up to shoot at the range with an idea in the back of my head to shoot military matches. i quickly learned i sucked at this. but, in the back of my head i always wanted a british smle rifle. don't ask why. now i'm looking. this is not a solicitation to receive offers back channel, please don't flood my pm's up with what you got and how much. my question to you mil guys/girls is what can i expect to pay for a pristine example for one of these rifles. i want fabulous condition and i want to shoot it, not collect it. 303 of course but i've seen some converted to 308...i think?? some indian surplus?? the prices i've seen are all over the place, from cheap...to too good to be true...to you're f***ing kidding me. what's a current situation, decent, fair price i should be looking for?

 

[NavelOfficer]

All I know is that I saw an Ishapore at Heritage in West Warwick, RI and at Connecticut Sporting Arms in North Branford, CT. Might be gone now...?
Ishapores are not to be looked down upon. From what I hear/read, they are well made rifles. .308 ammo is also a plus.

 

[Picton]

Ooooof.

Well. If you have a C&R and a Gunboards membership, that's where you'll find the most info and probably the best deals.

What I can tell you is that when I was collecting SMLEs back in the late '90s, the going rate was about $250 for a really good one. Now, I'd think it's closer to around $600 for something comparable. There are MANY things to educate yourself about, and Gunboards can help you:

All-matching .303 SMLEs can be found made by British, Australian, and Indian arsenals. The British stopped making them when they started making the No 4, but they were produced by the Aussies (at Lithgow) until the SLR was adopted, and by the Indians into the 1960s. Generally, SMLE folks frown on Indian SMLEs manufactured after the British stopped running the factories, at which point QC became iffy.

Now, the .308 rifles were not conversions. They are Ishapore 2A1 rifles. They were what the Indians used in reserve after the .303, and were built from the ground up for 7.62 NATO. They're generally very good rifles for what they are, though they do often look like dog doo. Prices on these used to be under $100, but that was (again) during the late '90s. I suspect you can find good ones for under $500 today.

Non-matching SMLEs, known in the community as "bitsers," were usually assembled from leftover Lithgow parts. A New Yorker named John Jovino bought up all of Lithgow's unused parts when the Aussies stopped making the SMLE and assembled them as non-matching rifles. They're often good-looking guns that shoot well, though there's nothing historical about them. Think, maybe, half the value of a genuine matching one.

As far as use, apart from the SMLE's ubiquity during WWI, it served the British until Dunkirk and the Aussies all through WWII. Most of the British in the CBI theatre ended up with one also, since the British controlled the Indian arsenals at the time and that's all the Indians were tooled up to make.

You can look around yourself to figure out the niceties of volley sights, Weedon repairs, draws, precautions while disassembling (pay attention to the king screw and watch those handguard ears!), and magazine cutoffs. Researching these things is half the fun.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

@Picton just beat me to it. Lots of great info over there.

If you take some good pictures of a rifle you are looking at they will let you know what you are looking at.

Keep in mind that you need 25 posts to view the Tucos trader forum.

Bob

 

[Picton]

Two more things I forgot:

Jovino also imported genuine, matching Lithgow rifles. Those should be priced much higher than the bitsers.

The days of cheap British .303 ammo are OVER. When I was collecting, you could find excellent Greek HXP by the bucketload for about $.15/round. Now? Good luck; get whatever you can get, but avoid Pakistani ammo from the 1970s. There's a reason it's cheap and available. Be prepared to run some hot water down the bore; the Brits made a special funnel for this, since a lot of .303 is corrosive.

All I have left is my beloved, matching 1947 No 5 from the Enfield family, and I'm never selling that. But a good, prewar SMLE with an intact mag cutoff from an English manufacturer still turns my head.

 

[Waher]

If you can find a No4Mk2, those are the best rifles manufactured postwar as a make work contract for various Commonwealth countries.

If your heart is set on a No1 with the iconic nose cap Joe Salter has some:

Lee Enfield

www.joesalter.com

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Because no one's mentioned this, are you dead-set on a SMLE?

"SMLE" refers to what was retroactively numbered as the No. 1 MkIII "short rifle", developed around 1905, 1906, and kept in British front line service officially until 1939 and de facto until 1942-44. This is the gun with the leaf rear sight, full stock, and nebulous bedding. Australia kept going with the No. 1 MkIII until the adoption of the SLR/L1A1 in the late 1950s. India kept going with the No. 1 MkIII until the 1960s as a front line rifle and until the early 2010s as a reserve rifle. The cheapest and most prolific examples of SMLEs, aka No. 1 MkIIIs, are currently the Aussie and Indian guns. Some of the Indian guns were made in 7.62 NATO; these can be identified by the less-tapered magazine.

The No. 4 Mk1 was the British and Canadian standard rifle from WW2 until the adoption of the SLR/L1A1/C1A1. There were tons made by Savage here in the US that never left the US as Lend-Lease aid. For example, I found one in a gun store here in RI that was out of an estate and still in the original cosmoline. Savage-made guns are probably the most common No. 4s here in the US, although you can find Canadian (Long Branch) and British rifles, too.

@Waher mentioned the No. 4 Mk2, which were nicer rifles. I think only the British and Irish Republic used the No. 4 Mk2 in big numbers because everyone else knew that the FAL was going to be the standard issue Commonwealth gun and wasn't sitting on old stocks of No. 4 Mk1s. The only countries that formally used the No. 4 Mk1 during WW2 in big enough numbers to matter for purposes of our commercial market were the British and Canadians.

There's also the No. 5 "Jungle Carbine", which is another story and I'm assuming not what @greencobra wants.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Non-matching SMLEs, known in the community as "bitsers," were usually assembled from leftover Lithgow parts. A New Yorker named John Jovino bought up all of Lithgow's unused parts when the Aussies stopped making the SMLE and assembled them as non-matching rifles. They're often good-looking guns that shoot well, though there's nothing historical about them. Think, maybe, half the value of a genuine matching one.

I owned one of those and it was a massive piece of shit. It was missing two reinforcing lugs in the coachwood stock - without the lugs, the stocks are prone to crack/explode. The rifle couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Failed to feed from the magazine. Easily the biggest turd I ever bought.

 

[Picton]

If you can find a No4Mk2, those are the best rifles manufactured postwar as a make work contract for various Commonwealth countries.

If your heart is set on a No1 with the iconic nose cap Joe Salter has some:

Lee Enfield

www.joesalter.com

No. 4s are great rifles too, but what I've found over the years is that folks who want an SMLE really aren't that interested in No 4s. I'm not sure why, but I'm the same way.

 

[Picton]

I owned one of those and it was a massive piece of shit. It was missing two reinforcing lugs in the coachwood stock - without the lugs, the stocks are prone to crack/explode. The rifle couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Failed to feed from the magazine. Easily the biggest turd I ever bought.

Good advice here on the lugs. It's easy to make your own out of sheet brass, but ALWAYS check for them in a JJCO rifle.

My Jovino bitser was an outstanding shooter. You never know. Slazenger stocks; a really first-rate gun, and I got it at a gun show in NC for about $89.

 

[Waher]

No. 4s are great rifles too, but what I've found over the years is that folks who want an SMLE really aren't that interested in No 4s. I'm not sure why, but I'm the same way.

It's the iconic nose cap, brass unit disk, walnut furniture or exotic Australian Coachwood, and the sword bayonet. Something satisfying about it being the image of the rifle with which the British Empire reached its apex. The WW1 history of the No1 SMLE isn't overshadowed by the storied Nagants or M1s of WW2.

If you ever get to handle a Long Magazine Lee Enfield, Lee Speed, or Lee Metford, they are quite something themselves. Absolutely beautiful Boer War era rifles.

 

[Picton]

Absolutely. Any late-Victorian British weapon is a work of art, including my Webley pistols.

Those rifles were beautiful. It starts with the Lee action, the cock-on-close. Nothing else comes close, design-wise. But pre-WWI workmanship really was something special.

 

[greencobra]

The No. 4 Mk1 was the British and Canadian standard rifle from WW2 until the adoption of the SLR/L1A1/C1A1. There were tons made by Savage here in the US that never left the US as Lend-Lease aid. For example, I found one in a gun store here in RI that was out of an estate and still in the original cosmoline. Savage-made guns are probably the most common No. 4s here in the US, although you can find Canadian (Long Branch) and British rifles, too.

this would work, yes. thanks for the info.

 

[majspud]

Be prepared to spend about $500. I compromised...I like the WWI SMLE, but am not a Brit collector. I got an American made early 1944 Savage No. 4 Mk. 1* that's a better fit in my collection.
t

 

[AFVet]

I had 3 stock Enfields, 2 British and 1 Aussie. and 1 sporterized ? is that a real word ? I had a blast with them and even taught my son to shoot on one, at 9 yrs old and on sand bag rests the weight and length of the rifle made recoil no problem for him. The "sporterized" one I got from the LGS in West Boylston that ended up getting busted by the AFT,. It had a beautiful wooden replacement montecarlo stock , barrel tapered, front sight replaced and scoped. I apologize for rambling on but I actually came on here right now because I just got an alert from Classic Firearms about #5 Jungle Carbines for sale. but I saw the prices and came here to complain and cry about them. lol. I wish to God i still had those rifles, but thanks to my ex wife I have nothing left. Greencobra, if I were you I would buy one no matter what, build up a supply of ammo and then shoot, reload, and enjoy. Paul

 

[Arto]

Old Glory has a mint one with ammo for $1200

 

[Waher]

An Ishapore L2A1 might be easier to feed. The finish on them isn't as refined as British Lees.

 

[majspud]

One just showed up in the WTS. I have no connection with this add. In my town, no less.

WTS - *****SOLD***** WTS Ishapore 2A1

SOLD

www.northeastshooters.com

t

 

[MJ1]

Interesting comments from both sides.

D and E prefix were complete Lithgow assembled 1944 rifles.

The barrels and other metal bits are worth $650 add a like new or like new stock at $450 value and it is still a deal.

Toss in a new 1944 bayonet for free and good to go.

Cheers

 

[MJ1]

1942 BSA