Smith & Wesson shooting range closed?

dcmdon

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Then I guess you won't be shooting at most indoor pay ranges in america.
Mike, my personal level of comfort is based on my personal experiences. I can count the number of times I've shot on the public side of a pay range on probably 2 hands. I always shoot on private land, at my gun club, or have shot at places like S&W during IDPA matches.

In no cases where I did go to pay ranges, did the range rent guns. In that case, I knew that the guy next to me was either licensed or was with someone who was licensed. Its a small comfort but it is some comfort.

I've seen a lot of unsafe gun handling in my life, and a lot of it was at public ranges, whether the person was licensed or not. I prefer not to go to these kinds of places. With that said, I'm not in any way saying others shouldn't go.

But with the cost of membership at some of the clubs in MA (often not much more than $100/yr) I can't imagine why anyone would want to go to a public range for anything other than competition or instruction.

Don
 
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dcmdon

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What you are describing happens every day at ranges all across the country. I can bring any individual to the range with me, whether they have ever fired a gun or not, licensed or not, and 'as my guest' they can shoot. I guess you don't belong to any gun ranges. I happen to be very responsible and take my new shooters through proper handling, loading, unloading, etc, start them out on something small (22 semiauto) and then progress them up the range of what I have until they find what they want to shoot and continue to supervise them but not everyone who brings guest is this way.
Pennypincher - you are directly supervising your guest. I'm not talking about this scenario. I'm talking about someone who has never handled a gun before walking in off the street, renting a gun and ending up in the stall next to you.

In fact, you have just made my argument for me. You said you instruct your guests on safe gun handling. You start them on a .22 and work up to larger stuff if they would like.

This is how it should be.

In contrast, it sounds like a non-shooter can come in off the street, plonk down a credit card, and go shoot a 4" 500 magnum having never handled or fired a gun, with no direct supervision.

This is not good policy for a company with the deep pockets that S&W has.


Stevecase - I'm not sure what you mean by dictator. I'm just expressing an opinion like everyone else here. We're not having a rights discussion. We're having a discussion about what is the right way to run a public range. I guess I'm just a bit more conservative than most.
 
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Mike, my personal level of comfort is based on my personal experiences. I can count the number of times I've shot on the public side of a pay range on probably 2 hands. I always shoot on private land, at my gun club, or have shot at places like S&W during IDPA matches.

In no cases where I did go to pay ranges, did the range rent guns.
That's an aberration, given that all the pay ranges in MA and NH I know of rent guns. (MFL, Belmont?, Bob's, AFS, S&W. )

In that case, I knew that the guy next to me was either licensed or was with someone who was licensed. Its a small comfort but it is some comfort.
I've been muzzle swept by people with licenses. Sometimes people who just got their license, who you would think have the safety course fresh in their mind. They don't. A license or a safety course does not a safe shooter make. Having people with a license nearby does not "make me feel safe". It's a false sense of security if anything. Some of these people with LTCs and FIDs are just as bad as joe random off the street who has never fired a gun before. You don't really know until you've seen them operate the firearm. A permit is not a reliable idiot filter. Worse yet the permit and safety course makes some of these people feel like they actually have a clue, which makes them less receptive to safety advice when it is needed.

There are definitely different levels of safety present at different facilities, though. For example if I go to a local club that costs <$50 to get in to (eg, where the fudds go to sight in their muzzleloaders before deer season) I am rolling the dice on who else shows up in terms of safety. I have to evaluate who they are based on prior knowledge or by observation. Thankfully at most of these clubs you only end up seeing other people pull up about 20% of the time. On the other hand if I go to a place like HSC, There's a 95% chance that the other people I am sharing the line with are NOT going to be "safety retarded".

But with the cost of membership at some of the clubs in MA (often not much more than $100/yr) I can't imagine why anyone would want to go to a public range for anything other than competition or instruction.
The reason for this is because at about 90% of the private clubs in MA and NH, most of their indoor ranges (if they exist) are pretty much worthless, too many restrictions on caliber (many ban FMJ or have bad backstops with 1000 FPS limits, etc. ) or too many rules that inhibit real practice or shitty ventilation. The amount of private clubs in MA that have what I consider "passable" indoor facilities can be counted on probably one hand. So in the winter when it is 10 out, you either freeze your ass off, or go to a pay range, you go to one of the few private clubs indoor facilities that don't suck, or you don't shoot. (pick one). Course this past winter we also got lucky, not a lot of snow so access was a lot better than it usually is, and the temps were pretty mild. When there is 2 feet of snow at the local private club with a glare ice driveway going into it (that only gets plowed if a member with a plow happens upon the snow) the pay range vs not shooting thing is enticing. There are only about maybe a 3-5 clubs in MA with an indoor range that doesn't have dealbreakers in the mix.

It's part of the reason I maintain a membership up at MFL. I get the best of both worlds. I can shoot indoors there 7 days a week into early evening at minimal cost... I can make reservations. It's also pretty damned safe for a "pay" range, particularly on the members side, although I have shot on the non-member side and I felt pretty safe over there too, given that there is almost always at least one full time RO on that side. I can also test fire rifles there too, no problem.

-Mike
 
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What you are describing happens every day at ranges all across the country. I can bring any individual to the range with me, whether they have ever fired a gun or not, licensed or not, and 'as my guest' they can shoot. I guess you don't belong to any gun ranges. I happen to be very responsible and take my new shooters through proper handling, loading, unloading, etc, start them out on something small (22 semiauto) and then progress them up the range of what I have until they find what they want to shoot and continue to supervise them but not everyone who brings guest is this way.
You would not be able to do this in New York. An unlicensed person can not even touch a gun anywhere. Not at a dealers & not at any club that I belong to. Even if you're thinking of purchasing a gun the dealer can't let you hold the gun without a license. No ifs ands or buts about it.
 
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You would not be able to do this in New York. An unlicensed person can not even touch a gun anywhere. Not at a dealers & not at any club that I belong to. Even if you're thinking of purchasing a gun the dealer can't let you hold the gun without a license. No ifs ands or buts about it.
All gun shops in MA that I have been to required me to show my license before handing over a gun to hold.

The club I belong to does not allow guests (though that is the most broken rule), the ro is the first person on the line, and to join you must show you can hit the target 10x from 50' and clear a misfire. So you would think people know gun safety, but I have seen every major rule broken almost every time I have been there. The worst was when a dad brought his grown kids and girlfriend boyfriends to shoot. Everyone had to have cell videos taken, newbies taking video were on the ejection side , in front of the firing line, etc.
 

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Ever go to the Original Bob's Shooting Range in Salisbury? I went there recently just to try a particular gun. First time and last. I started to show the guy my LTC and he said no need....didn't even ask to see any ID just sign a few papers.
They had just opened so I was the only one there. I don't know if they have range officers, not that I saw and it was starting to get busy when I left. A group of three came and none seemed to know what they were doing that's when I quickly finished and left.
 

ScottS

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You would not be able to do this in New York. An unlicensed person can not even touch a gun anywhere. Not at a dealers & not at any club that I belong to. Even if you're thinking of purchasing a gun the dealer can't let you hold the gun without a license. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Right. But that's one state out of 50. This may be true in a total of 3 states out of 50. Maybe. In the other 47, there is no such requirement. So, you tell me: which one's the norm, and which one's the aberration?

People who never get "outside the walls" have a hard time imagining what it's like out here in scary freedom-land.
 

Rob Boudrie

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You would not be able to do this in New York. An unlicensed person can not even touch a gun anywhere. Not at a dealers & not at any club that I belong to. Even if you're thinking of purchasing a gun the dealer can't let you hold the gun without a license. No ifs ands or buts about it.
I suggest you review NY Penal code 265.20, with particular attention to subsections sections (a)(7-a), (a)(7-b), (a)(7-e) and (a)(13).

The exceptions are more limited in scope than in MA, but are not non-existent.
 

dcmdon

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Right. But that's one state out of 50. This may be true in a total of 3 states out of 50. Maybe. In the other 47, there is no such requirement. So, you tell me: which one's the norm, and which one's the aberration?

People who never get "outside the walls" have a hard time imagining what it's like out here in scary freedom-land.
Scott - again, you are looking at this wrong. This is not about freedom. This is about the proper way for a PRIVATE entity to run their business. Apparently even in the PRM renting to unlicensed people is fine. We're not talking about the legality of that practice.

Don't ever forget that Government is a monopoly maintained with the use of deadly force. So you can't take your "business elsewhere". As such, it needs to be restricted as much as possible.

Shooting ranges are entirely different. They can have whatever arbitrary policies they choose to have. You have a choice to either pay them for their services or go elsewhere. This discussion is about that choice.

Cabinetman - have you ever been to a CT range that rents without any questions asked? (either a checkout or a pistol permit check?)

I don't know of any.

Does anyone know how Hoffmans does it?
 
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I've been muzzle swept by people with licenses. Sometimes people who just got their license, who you would think have the safety course fresh in their mind. They don't. A license or a safety course does not a safe shooter make. Having people with a license nearby does not "make me feel safe". It's a false sense of security if anything. Some of these people with LTCs and FIDs are just as bad as joe random off the street who has never fired a gun before. You don't really know until you've seen them operate the firearm. A permit is not a reliable idiot filter. Worse yet the permit and safety course makes some of these people feel like they actually have a clue, which makes them less receptive to safety advice when it is needed.

There are definitely different levels of safety present at different facilities, though. For example if I go to a local club that costs <$50 to get in to (eg, where the fudds go to sight in their muzzleloaders before deer season) I am rolling the dice on who else shows up in terms of safety. I have to evaluate who they are based on prior knowledge or by observation. Thankfully at most of these clubs you only end up seeing other people pull up about 20% of the time. On the other hand if I go to a place like HSC, There's a 95% chance that the other people I am sharing the line with are NOT going to be "safety retarded".
I agree with Mike. At BR&P, the dues are $100/year and they make everyone sit thru a few hour safety briefing on safety and rules for each range (size of targets/distances/etc.). In spite of that, some members with LTCs seem to be unable to manage the basic safety rules! I had RO duty this past Saturday and there were probably a total of 20 shooters over the 5 hours on the outdoor pistol range. Two members were ~3 shooting positions apart and were swapping guns on the range. No problem with that except as I'm walking down the back of the range behind the shooters this one guy is carrying a gun with the barrel pointed across the range at an angle (it was pointed at me as he walked). One time folks called a cease fire to change targets and he had to be reminded that it means action open on the guns! I'm not at all sure that he "got it" when I pointed out these errors to him politely!
 

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Scott - again, you are looking at this wrong. This is not about freedom. This is about the proper way for a PRIVATE entity to run their business. Apparently even in the PRM renting to unlicensed people is fine. We're not talking about the legality of that practice.

Don't ever forget that Government is a monopoly maintained with the use of deadly force. So you can't take your "business elsewhere". As such, it needs to be restricted as much as possible.

Shooting ranges are entirely different. They can have whatever arbitrary policies they choose to have. You have a choice to either pay them for their services or go elsewhere. This discussion is about that choice.

Cabinetman - have you ever been to a CT range that rents without any questions asked? (either a checkout or a pistol permit check?)

I don't know of any.

Does anyone know how Hoffmans does it?
I never said that. My point was the number of people who seem to think a rental range allowing "unlicensed" shooters is unsafe, when, in fact, the vast majority states don't even have licenses.
 
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I suggest you review NY Penal code 265.20, with particular attention to subsections sections (a)(7-a), (a)(7-b), (a)(7-e) and (a)(13).

The exceptions are more limited in scope than in MA, but are not non-existent.
I don't have the time to look up the penal code crap. I'm telling you the way it is. You can't hold a hand gun at a dealer without a permit. You can't,at any club that I know of hold, or shoot a handgun without a permit. That's what I know to be true in upstate NY. I can't imagine it's any easier in NYC or Long Island.
 
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Ever go to the Original Bob's Shooting Range in Salisbury? I went there recently just to try a particular gun. First time and last. I started to show the guy my LTC and he said no need....didn't even ask to see any ID just sign a few papers.
They had just opened so I was the only one there. I don't know if they have range officers, not that I saw and it was starting to get busy when I left. A group of three came and none seemed to know what they were doing that's when I quickly finished and left.
Blowing it out of proportion. I've been there a bunch of times and am still alive. I've seen some real dipshits there, yet we don't hear about people dropping left and right. There is no RO, but that's what makes it nice. Just do whatever the <bleep> you want as long as you are safe. Look at the rules for some of the private clubs: max capacity of 5, at least 3 seconds between shots, no drawing from holster, etc.
 
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Blowing it out of proportion. I've been there a bunch of times and am still alive. I've seen some real dipshits there, yet we don't hear about people dropping left and right. There is no RO, but that's what makes it nice. Just do whatever the <bleep> you want as long as you are safe. Look at the rules for some of the private clubs: max capacity of 5, at least 3 seconds between shots, no drawing from holster, etc.
That`s why I liked the S&W range. I would show up w/guns and ammo, check in at the desk and proceed to the range. Hang my targets, fire up a few boxes of ammo and pack up and leave.
 

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This problem will be solved when the range opens back up as a privet club with only vetted members. Having a valid LTC should be enought to vet someone. Having a valid Mass. LTC = CORI check.
I wonder how it will work for us........ As you know we go there after the plant tour............ I'm going to wait till they open back up and go there in person to talk with the new manager.....

Sorry to see that you got a Pink Slip John, I hope when they reopen that you can work there again................
 

Rob Boudrie

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I don't have the time to look up the penal code crap. I'm telling you the way it is. You can't hold a hand gun at a dealer without a permit. You can't,at any club that I know of hold, or shoot a handgun without a permit. That's what I know to be true in upstate NY. I can't imagine it's any easier in NYC or Long Island.
I have this thing about accuracy and precision, and deal in verifiable facts rather than in declarations of "the way it is" and, as such, I tend to quote specific sources rather than offer proof by assertion.

There are two issues - what a dealer allows, and what the law allows. The law allows someone who has applied for NY license to shoot handguns without a permit under the instruction of a permit holder; allows non-residents who are participating in NRA or IMHSA matches to fire hanguns; and allows persons from 14 to 21 to fire handguns under the supervision of an instructor. So, what you say is correct as a "general concept", but is not fully accurate.

I have, in fact, shot at numerous clubs in upstate NY and one in Long Island as a welcomed non-resident visitor attending match without a NY permit.

Legal issues surrounding handgun possession in NY tend to be more precisely defined than in MA, where there are a number of rather vague laws to contend with.

Right. But that's one state out of 50. This may be true in a total of 3 states out of 50. Maybe. In the other 47, there is no such requirement. So, you tell me: which one's the norm, and which one's the aberration?
Numerous shops in Las Vegas, ranging from the small to the very large have rental ranges. One thing I saw at one was a sign that no customer without a CCW could rent a lane and shoot alone, but unlicensed visitors were welcome in groups of 2 or more. I think the thought was someone renting a gun to commit suicide at a range.
 
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ScottS

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Numerous shops in Las Vegas, ranging from the small to the very large have rental ranges. One thing I saw at one was a sign that no customer without a CCW could rent a lane and shoot alone, but unlicensed visitors were welcome in groups of 2 or more. I think the thought was someone renting a gun to commit suicide at a range.
I believe you are correct. I used to shoot regularly at an indoor range when I lived in 'Vegas (called American Shooters at the time), and it was always a topic of discussion.
 

Rob Boudrie

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I believe you are correct. I used to shoot regularly at an indoor range when I lived in 'Vegas (called American Shooters at the time), and it was always a topic of discussion.
American Shooters (on Arville Rd just a bit west of the strip) is great - less "sales pressure" that the smaller, but better advertised, Las Vegas gun store. Also, American Shooters has been VERY helpful to the USPSA nationals, allowing competitors to use it as destination point for pre-shipping their ammo with no fee for this service (very useful due to the Las Vegas hotel convention of charging a fee for each package received on behalf of a so-called guest). I am not certain if Matt Lamph is still involved in running American Shooters, but he is 100% good guy.
 

dcmdon

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Rob - my experience matched yours with respect to shooting matches in NY.

The troopers I've called knew the law and were able to cite specific statutes that I was able to confirm on the internet.

The only thing that gave them (and everyone else) trouble had to do with 30 round post-ban AR mags I wanted to use for a 3-gun at West Point.
The 2 troopers I spoke with said there was no exception in the law for std-cap mags, but I shouldn't worry about it.

Not quite comfortable with that, I found that if the match was actually on post, the NY laws wouldn't apply and I'd be covered by FOPA during transit.
I was never actually able to find if the match was on post, so I ran a countersunk screw into some P-mags to limit their capacity during the trip and then removed them when I got there and confirmed that 90% of the competitors didn't even realize that NY had a mag capacity limit.

Don

p.s. which is similar to the time I disassembled my Glock and carried a bare frame out with me one evening at the S&W winter nationals when we were getting a tour of the Springfield armory. I needed to stay legal. But I was ethically uncomfortable with leaving a firearm in my hotel room. Thanks to the fact that MA defines a firearm differently than the feds, I was able to accomplish both goals.

I think that if the USA ever gets reasonable firearms laws, the intellect of gunowners will go down. We won't have all these legal logic games to play to keep our brains active.
 
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I have this thing about accuracy and precision, and deal in verifiable facts rather than in declarations of "the way it is" and, as such, I tend to quote specific sources rather than offer proof by assertion.

There are two issues - what a dealer allows, and what the law allows. The law allows someone who has applied for NY license to shoot handguns without a permit under the instruction of a permit holder; allows non-residents who are participating in NRA or IMHSA matches to fire hanguns; and allows persons from 14 to 21 to fire handguns under the supervision of an instructor. So, what you say is correct as a "general concept", but is not fully accurate.

I have, in fact, shot at numerous clubs in upstate NY and one in Long Island as a welcomed non-resident visitor attending match without a NY permit.

Legal issues surrounding handgun possession in NY tend to be more precisely defined than in MA, where there are a number of rather vague laws to contend with.

Thank you. I learned something today. The two clubs that I belong to allow no non licensed person to shot a handgun on the premises. Nobody at all. I believe there is a meeting at one tomorrow night. If so I'll try to get a clarification on that issue. Don't know when I'll be at a dealers again. Thanks again
 

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Thank you. I learned something today. The two clubs that I belong to allow no non licensed person to shot a handgun on the premises. Nobody at all. I believe there is a meeting at one tomorrow night. If so I'll try to get a clarification on that issue. Don't know when I'll be at a dealers again. Thanks again
Hey, SLOW DOWN there, mister. That kind of reasonable, well-intentioned exchange isn't very welcome on a gun forum. I'm not certain that's a road we want to start down.
 
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Hey, SLOW DOWN there, mister. That kind of reasonable, well-intentioned exchange isn't very welcome on a gun forum. I'm not certain that's a road we want to start down.
LOL..Thanks Scott. I see that you used to live in Vegas. I plan on being there in late July or early August. I was going to the Gun Store to take the training and qualify for a Neveda non-res permit. Can I get the same training/qualification at American Shooters?
 

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Hey, SLOW DOWN there, mister. That kind of reasonable, well-intentioned exchange isn't very welcome on a gun forum. I'm not certain that's a road we want to start down.
Yeah, people will start to fall asleep at their keyboards across the northeast [grin]

LOL..Thanks Scott. I see that you used to live in Vegas. I plan on being there in late July or early August. I was going to the Gun Store to take the training and qualify for a Neveda non-res permit. Can I get the same training/qualification at American Shooters?
Yes, but why would you want to go to all that trouble when there is a much easier way to become "Nevada legal"? Get started now and you may even be properly licensed by the time you get there in July.

Also, if you get a NV permit, you have to get your carry gun listed on it (I think revolvers are listed generically), but persons using permits for which reciprocity is granted do not have to engage in this additional exercise.

Arizona CCW permits are now accepted by the state of Nevada, and may be obtained completely via mail.


Yet another approach (which falls under "may issue") is to obtain a Rhode Island non-resident permit from their AG's office - if you can [thinking]

I believe there is a meeting at one tomorrow night. If so I'll try to get a clarification on that issue. Don't know when I'll be at a dealers again. Thanks again
I respectfully suggest that you will be pissing into the wind unless you suggest policies that are specifically covered by NY law and have the actual law, rather than "something you heard on NES" as your source of info. I never ask that people believe me, which is why I tend to provide cites and references to official sources (my NY law reference is a copyrighted CD from Looseleaf Law, so I can't post copy of their material).
 
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Yeah, people will start to fall asleep at their keyboards across the northeast [grin]



Yes, but why would you want to go to all that trouble when there is a much easier way to become "Nevada legal"? Get started now and you may even be properly licensed by the time you get there in July.

Also, if you get a NV permit, you have to get your carry gun listed on it (I think revolvers are listed generically), but persons using permits for which reciprocity is granted do not have to engage in this additional exercise.

Arizona CCW permits are now accepted by the state of Nevada, and may be obtained completely via mail.


Yet another approach (which falls under "may issue") is to obtain a Rhode Island non-resident permit from their AG's office - if you can [thinking]


I respectfully suggest that you will be pissing into the wind unless you suggest policies that are specifically covered by NY law and have the actual law, rather than "something you heard on NES" as your source of info. I never ask that people believe me, which is why I tend to provide cites and references to official sources (my NY law reference is a copyrighted CD from Looseleaf Law, so I can't post copy of their material).
Thanks for the info Rob. I wasn't aware that Nev will now recognize an Arizona permit. I'll check it out and if it can all be done by mail that's probably what I'll do. I'm going to Vegas anyway though. I thought about the Rhode Island route a while back and INK told me that he could help me with the RI qualification. I hesitate about RI because I've heard horror stories about trying to get an RI permit and I don't want to ever have to report that I was denied anywhere.

I missed my club meeting by a week. Maybe next month.

Thanks again for your help.

Bob
 

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Also, keep in mind that if approved, you have to go to the RI AG's office to pick it up in person - and the majority of persons approved get said approval after going to an AG/BCI run appeal hearing (another trip into Providence).
 
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Rob,

Another question if you don't mind. Handgun Law says that to apply in Az you must prove that you have had proper training. Does the fact that I fact that I have a permits from NY/Mass/PA/ME/NH/ID meet that requirement?

Thanks again,
Bob
 

Rob Boudrie

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Rob,

Another question if you don't mind. Handgun Law says that to apply in Az you must prove that you have had proper training. Does the fact that I fact that I have a permits from NY/Mass/PA/ME/NH/ID meet that requirement?

Thanks again,
Bob
One of the items listed as qualifying on the AZ info page http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=13/03112.htm is:

6. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.
So, I would expect the MA permit would qualify since MGL requires a training class.
 
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