Smith & Wesson says sales fell 69.3% as market returns to normal after the pandemic

[EJFudd]

I’ll pass thank you.

The Hillary Hole was the beginning of the end for them...

Yeah, the infamous, universally hated "IL" (I'll be polite about it) was and still is a deal killer for me. I refuse to own an S&W revolver with it.

If S&W ever wanted a revolver sales boost, they know how to get it: Solve the nasty QA/QC problems and do away with the "IL" across the entire line.

 

[enbloc]

I figured. No self respecting gun owner owns a Smegma.

are 6 ok?

 

[Taipan01]

But they aren't buying S&W guns. When you think AR, you don't think S&W. There was a brief time, but not now. When you think compact, you rarely think of S&W. More are thinking Sig and Glock and now Taurus and others as well.

Plus, didn't they run a HUGE sale in the last year or two to boost sales. Maybe things have dropped off after that.

I agree on most of the dogpiling about Smith dropping the ball on QC and I posted as much above (I'm a Smith DA revolver guy) but I wouldn't agree so much with the bolded part. One of my recent acquirements was a S&W PC Shield plus and I was specifically hunting down poly micro 9's. I picked up a few products (P365, Hellcat, etc.) from other manufactures also but overall, if I were to pick out which to keep for most (sans pocket carry) uses, I like the shield more so than the others but that's of course subjective.

 

[Asaltweapon]

are 6 ok?

That’s a whole new level of retard owning 6 of them.

Did you buy the corresponding number of Curves by chance?

 

[snubnose]

With everyone going nuts for two years, you had to figure it would slow down. That being said, they haven't come out with anything good in a while.

CSX, 327pc don't count ?

Smiths QC is f***ing terrible. They better do something about it because eventually they will not be able to rely on just “Smith people” to sell shit. (this is actually a real archetype)

Difficult to come to grips with, worked there in '70's help put me through undergrad/grad school-everyone really cared about quality and people were making some real cash as evidenced by the parking lot, Roadrunners-RT's-GTO's, S's X's plus the odd Shelby AND people knew what sex they were, the good ole days for sure.

 

[enbloc]

That’s a whole new level of retard owning 6 of them.

Did you buy the corresponding number of Curves by chance?

Lol. I picked them up for less than $200 each for the purpose of training new shooters with them. They are so close to Glock pistols that they are
great training and shooting pieces without the cost of a half-dozen Glocks. Every one that used them had zero gun-issues.
Shooter issues are a different story. Nice being able to teach disassembly/cleaning/reassembly on identical platforms...

 

[whatluck]

The 3rd gen smith semiautos are great guns

 

[Asaltweapon]

Lol. I picked them up for less than $200 each for the purpose of training new shooters with them. They are so close to Glock pistols that they are
great training and shooting pieces without the cost of a half-dozen Glocks. Every one that used them had zero gun-issues.
Shooter issues are a different story. Nice being able to teach disassembly/cleaning/reassembly on identical platforms...

Totally agree with that aspect. It’s a bit different than “me” owning them.

 

[mcb]

A sale sounds nice but I got all the guns I want and my 4000 rounds so I’m good.

 

[enbloc]

Totally agree with that aspect. It’s a bit different than “me” owning them.

I have come to "respect" them. I have been shooting one of them since 2004 and it is fabulous. Trigger and action smoothed out (after about 2k rounds)
and is still under Lifetime Warranty. Really a great "beginner-intermediate" gun for it's era. Most folks don't own/shoot them long enough to appreciate them.

That and there are much better guns on the market now, but if you find one cheap, my advice is to buy...
~Enbloc

 

[EJFudd]

I have come to "respect" them. I have been shooting one of them since 2004 and it is fabulous. Trigger and action smoothed out (after about 2k rounds)
and is still under Lifetime Warranty. Really a great "beginner-intermediate" gun for it's era. Most folks don't own/shoot them long enough to appreciate them.

That and there are much better guns on the market now, but if you find one cheap, my advice is to buy...
~Enbloc

Nothing wrong with the latest version Sigmas (a.k.a., "SDs") except that the base SDVE models look cheap and have the negative reputation of being a novice's or beginner's gun. The SD "Gray" model and some of the limited run versions look nicer, although still dated (kinda like a Glock). In fact, I'd love to own an older pre-VE SD9 to tinker with.

And a reminder for anyone who cares: The SDVE's (or SD's) are the only S&W pistols that you can still buy brand new today that take pre-ban hi-cap magazines.

 

[enbloc]

Nothing wrong with the latest version Sigmas (a.k.a., "SDs") except that the base SDVE models look cheap and have the negative reputation of being a novice's or beginner's gun. The SD "Gray" model and some of the limited run versions look nicer, although still dated (kinda like a Glock). In fact, I'd love to own an older pre-VE SD9 to tinker with.

And a reminder for anyone who cares: The SDVE's (or SD's) are the only S&W pistols that you can still buy brand new today that take pre-ban hi-cap magazines.

I'm with ya. I do think the SW9VE and SW40VE offer a great, dependable gun for someone on an extreme budget. They may not look as nice as an SDVE,
but they go bang each and every time and are accurate enough for beginner-intermediate shooters.

 

[Lokdog]

It doesn't help that my local gun store is running a special on the new M&P all metal 9mm for $850!!! I was telling my buddy that showed me the email that my all metal CZ SP-01 was cheaper than that. An M&P pistol for over 800 is definitely high on the insanity scale

 

[sshamrock]

I have 3 s&w pistols, and only because I get them for 50% off. If it wasn't for the discount I'd own 0. As everyone else stated they are beat by everyone else in the market.

 

[P51MA]

I don't understand how their sales are at their lowest point in 13 years.
IIRC, 13 years ago (2009) was Obamas first year in office, isn't that when gun sales began to skyrocket ???

The increase in gun owners from roughly 2008-today has been astronomical.

What passed for record gun sales in Obama’s first term looks like a joke in hindsight.

A lot of people bought most of what they needed the last 2 years, and the economy is now in early recession, so it’s not surprising sales are slowing dramatically.

 

[EJFudd]

I have 3 s&w pistols, and only because I get them for 50% off. If it wasn't for the discount I'd own 0. As everyone else stated they are beat by everyone else in the market.

S&W has a great storied history and a great universally recognized brand name. It was an American legend right up until the Wesson family sold out. Even after that, despite conglomerate buyouts, it still did reasonably well right up until politics entered the picture. Glock certainly didn't help either, but here we must start to separate revolver issues from semi-auto issues. While the hated IL, cheapening issues and QA/QC issues damaged their revolver business, Glock forced S&W into the plastic gun business where they had zero experience. It took a long time for S&W to master the plastic gun business. In the process, 3rd Gen semi-autos became too expensive to make & sell. Metal was now only profitable in 1911s and a few .22's. The good news is that political threat after political threat (to 2A) has kept S&W alive as Americans bought guns while they still could... but that is a boom and bust kind of existence.

So where does that leave us? Like I've said before: I buy vintage used S&W's and brand new in every other brand. Not a good sign for the future success of the company.

 

[HarryPottar]

I have a number of S&W, 1911's, striker fired and a lot of S&W Revolvers, I've coveted the Performance Center Models, all have been fantastic quality.

However my last S&W was the new Shield Plus Performance Center, ported barrel and slide with optics.

SHIELD PLUS | Smith & Wesson

Since 1852 we’ve been an industry leading manufacturer of pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shooting accessories. We continue to bring innovative firearms to market that meet the needs of every shooter and deliver on exceptional quality with a brand you’ve learned to trust.

www.smith-wesson.com

This supposed to be the cream of the crop PC version, brand new gun, cleaned and oiled.

Failed to Feed.
Failed to Eject.
Light Strikes.
...

I could no get one magazine through with out at least 3 or 5 failures on something, everything that could go wrong, went wrong.
I persisted and put 150 rounds through it in attempt to break-it-in, still no luck.

The one saving grace is their warranty, it went back and was basically rebuilt, it's been flawless since.

However, the reason I look for the PC versions is that the sold me on the blurb...

Performance Center | Smith & Wesson

www.smith-wesson.com

ABOUT PERFORMANCE CENTER​

From hand cutting to fine tuning for precision, Performance Center firearms are top performers. Products from the Performance Center are the ultimate expression of old-world craftsmanship blended with modern technology.

Feature-rich and enhanced for better performance, our firearms maintain production line integrity. Whether you’re shooting a pistol, revolver, or rifle, you can be sure your Performance Center gun is made with a close attention to detail for your best shot yet.

One assumes if "old-world craftsmanship" is really taken place, anyone who had tried to test fire the Shield would have seen it had major problems.
Again assuming due to cost cutting or keeping up with demand that the Performance Center laser engraving is more branding now than quality.

However, I still wouldn't hesitate to buy another S&S because of their warranty, sh*t happens and things in manufacturing & quality control can go wrong for numerous reasons.
This was one out of many that I have that went wrong, all the others have been great.

S&W customer service was great, took a while as they where backed up (what does that tell you), but it wasn't my only firearm, so I wasn't in any hurry and I knew it would come back fixed.

Harry

 

[SFC13557]

SPRINGFIELD — Smith & Wesson plans to start moving its front office to Tennessee at around this time next year.


“Towards the beginning part of next summer will be — starting to ramp up the operations in earnest and start to be manufacturing and distributing product out of that location,” said Mark Smith, Smith & Wesson president and CEO Thursday in a conference call following the release of disappointing financial results for the company."

On stock analysts asked how the move will affect Smith & Wesson’s flexible manufacturing program. Smith replied by reaffirming that the metal-shaping machining operations and forging operations will remain in Springfield.



“All those machining operations are staying here in Springfield. So there really isn’t a whole lot of change there,” he said."

Smith & Wesson tells Wall Street its move to Tennessee is ‘on track’

The company’s CEO also reiterated that Smith & Wesson’s machining operations will remain in Springfield, preserving uninterrupted its flexible manufacturing capabilities.

www.masslive.com

 

[snubnose]

I have a number of S&W, 1911's, striker fired and a lot of S&W Revolvers, I've coveted the Performance Center Models, all have been fantastic quality.

However my last S&W was the new Shield Plus Performance Center, ported barrel and slide with optics.

SHIELD PLUS | Smith & Wesson

Since 1852 we’ve been an industry leading manufacturer of pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shooting accessories. We continue to bring innovative firearms to market that meet the needs of every shooter and deliver on exceptional quality with a brand you’ve learned to trust.

www.smith-wesson.com

This supposed to be the cream of the crop PC version, brand new gun, cleaned and oiled.

Failed to Feed.
Failed to Eject.
Light Strikes.
...

I could no get one magazine through with out at least 3 or 5 failures on something, everything that could go wrong, went wrong.
I persisted and put 150 rounds through it in attempt to break-it-in, still no luck.

The one saving grace is their warranty, it went back and was basically rebuilt, it's been flawless since.

However, the reason I look for the PC versions is that the sold me on the blurb...

Performance Center | Smith & Wesson

www.smith-wesson.com

One assumes if "old-world craftsmanship" is really taken place, anyone who had tried to test fire the Shield would have seen it had major problems.
Again assuming due to cost cutting or keeping up with demand that the Performance Center laser engraving is more branding now than quality.

However, I still wouldn't hesitate to buy another S&S because of their warranty, sh*t happens and things in manufacturing & quality control can go wrong for numerous reasons.
This was one out of many that I have that went wrong, all the others have been great.

S&W customer service was great, took a while as they where backed up (what does that tell you), but it wasn't my only firearm, so I wasn't in any hurry and I knew it would come back fixed.

Harry

There are a great many models which Smith no longer supports-whats the 'lifetime' warranty really worth ?

How about current/recent quality of the Performance Center revolvers ?, really jonesing for a 327 or 686-snub of course.

 

[Mark from MA]

I own 4 smiths a 1960's mod 19 nickel 357, a 645 (second gen tank), a Eseries 1911, and a 5" 44mag. All of them are good.

I don't shoot any of them...alot....so there's that and all of them are over 5 years old. But the fit and finish on all of them is good.

I wouldn't buy most of the new crap they come out with.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

It’s funny, based on the primary location of many NES members, S&W gets more hate than on average due to nanny state triggers I suspect.

I agree quality has gone down over time for metal guns from Smith…. I wouldn’t buy a new revolver from them, or a 1911.

I easily have 100k rounds through all of the M&Ps I have owned and still prefer them over a Glock for reliability and ergonomics. I live in a free state now, and still prefer to carry and shoot my M&Ps, although I also carry a P365 in the summer and a Glock 42 for pocket carry.

 

[drgrant]

It’s funny, based on the primary location of many NES members, S&W gets more hate than on average due to nanny state triggers I suspect.

I agree quality has gone down over time for metal guns from Smith…. I wouldn’t buy a new revolver from them, or a 1911.

I easily have 100k rounds through all of the M&Ps I have owned and still prefer them over a Glock for reliability and ergonomics. I live in a free state now, and still prefer to carry and shoot my M&Ps, although I also carry a P365 in the summer and a Glock 42 for pocket carry.

It has nothing to do with shit triggers or MA. Their CS/QC/QA has gone into the toilet on the bigger revolvers. The only thing they’re good at is selling stuff. (eg, at the dealer level) And once in awhile they make something innovative like the M&P EZ etc. But those are exceptions rather than the rule. Some corpo skinflint there obviously figured out how to cheapen manufacturing based off the shifting demographics of the market. Even 10 or so years ago US gun consumers would not tolerate what smith is doing now. I have a friend that had to send new guns back 2 or 3 times. The last one he got back from the repair literally had blasting media inside the action which made the trigger shitty and gritty like who lets that kind of stuff go out the door? That’s just retarded… (Basically they fixed his original problem but made the trigger suck in the process)

 

[snubnose]

Still had the stones to bail-sort of- on the State of Insanity and flip off Barker/Sarno and Dimples-good for a few points with me, and besides the 'this gun sucks' phenomena is certainly not limited to Roosevelt Ave by any means.

 

[EJFudd]

It’s funny, based on the primary location of many NES members, S&W gets more hate than on average due to nanny state triggers I suspect.

It has nothing to do with shit triggers or MA.

... and besides the 'this gun sucks' phenomena is certainly not limited to Roosevelt Ave by any means.

Oh, I think a lot of it has to do with the extra-crappy MA AG-compliant triggers. For what I believe are "inside politics" political reasons, more than any other manufacturer, S&W goes out of their way to deliver a really nasty trigger to Ma**h***s that only Marsha or Maura could love. Ruger doesn't do it. Sig doesn't do it. Even Kahr does do it. Nobody else goes so far out of their way to make Marsha and Maura happy.

That overt over-the-top level of compliance with the AG requirements leads to higher cost (think: Apex kits) and, I believe, has soured many Ma**h***s on the brand.

 

[drgrant]

Oh, I think a lot of it has to do with the extra-crappy MA AG-compliant triggers. For what I believe are "inside politics" political reasons, more than any other manufacturer, S&W goes out of their way to deliver a really nasty trigger to Ma**h***s that only Marsha or Maura could love. Ruger doesn't do it. Sig doesn't do it. Even Kahr does do it. Nobody else goes so far out of their way to make Marsha and Maura happy.

That overt level of compliance with the AG requirements leads to higher cost (think: Apex kits) and, I believe, has soured many Ma**h***s on the brand.

Lol none of the people I deal with buy MA SKU'ed guns (guns specifically ruined for MA) or MA shit trigger SKUs and they all say the same thing I just did. Some of us here don't play in deli ticket land. We don't care about MA bullshit. This is not an "MA thing" its "smith selling themselves out" thing. Look on youtube, videos of canted barrels on $1000 revolvers, etc, etc, ad nasueam.

ETA: This malaise by the way started a long time ago. Hell when my dad got his SW1911TA (e series) the f***ing safety levers fell right off the gun because nobody bothered to fit them properly. Pretty disgusting. It was like they couldn't even be bothered. I had Lou @ BEC fix it up for him and he made it the way it should have left the factory.

 

[EJFudd]

Lol none of the people I deal with buy MA SKU'ed guns (guns specifically ruined for MA) or MA shit trigger SKUs and they all say the same thing I just did. Some of us here don't play in deli ticket land. We don't care about MA bullshit. This is not an "MA thing" its "smith selling themselves out" thing. Look on youtube, videos of canted barrels on $1000 revolvers, etc, etc, ad nasueam.

ETA: This malaise by the way started a long time ago. Hell when my dad got his SW1911TA (e series) the f***ing safety levers fell right off the gun because nobody bothered to fit them properly. Pretty disgusting. It was like they couldn't even be bothered. I had Lou @ BEC fix it up for him and he made it the way it should have left the factory.

No one is denying the piss-poor quality problems, although it seems to affect the current crop of revolvers more than it does the plastic semi-autos.

Just because you buy free state models (in any brand) doesn't mean that the majority of Ma**h***s are also doing that. I'm betting that they aren't.

NES is a little world onto its own. Outside of these pages, there are a ton of Ma**h*** buyers who couldn't care less about free vs. Commie state models.

 

[drgrant]

No one is denying the piss-poor quality problems, although it seems to affect the current crop of revolvers more than it does the plastic semi-autos.

Yeah but what's the big product smith is known for? Revolvers. If they can't make their flagships well thats what we call a " BigProblem(tm)"





Also stuff like M&P handguns, (shields) etc are designed for moronic, shit throwing apes to assemble, its pretty hard to f*** those up. (although they managed to do that too, from
time to time.

Same with the ARs, for that matter.

Oh but what about that shotgun that... they had to recall like 2 weeks after it came out?




"You want to buy M&P 12 Shotgun?"


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc




S&Ws QC always seemed to rollercoaster, now they back in the sewer again. I'm shocked!!!!!

Just because you buy free state models (in any brand) doesn't mean that the majority of Ma**h***s are also doing that. I'm betting that they aren't.

I don't care about the majority of ma**h***s. lol. I'm just telling you this has absolutely nothing to do with MA sku'ed guns or MA f***ed triggers. That's like 2% of their product line, the
rest of it is almost identical to the stuff everyone else gets.

 

[drgrant]

In fairness, there's plenty of Rugers with canted barrels, too.

But.... that's f***ing Ruger. They've never been a QC paragon at any given time nor ever pretended to be on their revolvers which, at least for a long time, cost less than nealy everything except for the Brazilian trash from Taurus.

 

[yogi]

I have tried hard to bond with S&W but aside from two revolvers, a 686 357 mag (which I sold) and a 617 22lr (which I will never sell), nothing really mattered.

 

[drgrant]

I have tried hard to bond with S&W but aside from two revolvers, a 686 357 mag (which I sold) and a 617 22lr (which I will never sell), nothing really mattered.

I had a 4" 686-5 which was tuned up nice which I should have never sold that was legitimately a great gun........ at least the guy who has it now is an instructor and is probably still using it to teach students with.