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Smith & Wesson M&P semi-autos

J

JimConway

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I strongly suggest that none of you purchase a S&W M&P. Over the past 6 months, in the course of courses, private lessons or coaching, i have shot a lot of them. For a gun sold in Massachusetts, the M&P is suppose to have a 10 pound trigger pull. I have yet to find one with a 10 pound trigger pull. I have found that the average trigger pull is about 15 pounds and found one the was about 20 pounds.
S&W has done a major disservice to the MA shooting community by allowing such monstrosities our of the plant.

You must remember that the most important interface between the firearm and the shooter is the trigger. There guns are very hard formost people to shoot with any reasonable accuracy and then only slowly.
If you must buy an M&P, please plan to send the gun to Dan Burwell (http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/) for a trigger job and to have the magazine disconnect removed.

Oddly this problem only seems to happen to guns that are MA compliant. I have a number of friends in other parts of the country that are very satisfied with the trigger pulls on their M&Ps
 
Jim:

I really hope you will rewrite that post. The M&P is a fine gun. It just needs a trigger job. And you don't have to send it to Burwell -- Greg Derr will do it as well.

You should not be writing off the gun on that basis.
 
As expected

I have shot over 30 of these guns and have yet to see a good one.
The only difference between the guns that i have shot is that some of them were worse than others.
I should have mentioned Greg Derr. I knew that he did this work on M&Ps, but have not tried one of his guns.
I have a question for you, "why are there so many used M&Ps available for sale".

I shot one yesterday that the owner could barely keep a 3" group with at 6 yards. I gave him one of my guns and he did a perfect one hole group, except for one flyer, at the same distance
The trigger is the heart of the gun, plain and simple.
With that said, who is the next to flame me?
 
Jim:

Come on now. Reread my post. It is not a flame -- it is a polite disagreement. People will disagree and can do so without accusing each other of flaming when they are not doing so.

The M&P needs a trigger job out of the box. That is all. So why not just say that instead of saying that no one should buy an M&P?
 
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Jim, next time we meet, I'll let you try my S&W M&P 40C. I think you'll be surprised.

It took me some time and some careful work, but I was able to achieve a pretty good trigger. It's no 1911 crisp glass rod, but it's not terrible.

Unfortunately the factory trigger in MA is terrible, but the 48 state version is much better and a direct drop-in. From there, it's not that hard to smooth it out even more.

I would no more stick with the MA trigger than I'd want the NY trigger on a Glock.

Honestly, I think S&W probably did the right thing. They complied with the law and made a trigger that would pass muster for the dealer and then made the 'proper' trigger an easy upgrade. Sure, it now costs a MA buyer more to get the right trigger, but S&W didn't waste a ton of dev costs to meet such a small market. I would think if the development was too expensive we might never have seen a MA compliant version.
 
Traded mine in for a glock...i wasn't really satisfied either. I had the trigger work done, but wasn't happy with the overall feel of the gun. Also, I wasn't happy about the non-existence of large capacity magazines either. Also, mine had a lot of jams too. A couple were due to the magazines, but several of them were failure to eject the casing. haven't seen one failure from my Glock [wink]
 
M1911
There is no doubt that the M&P needs a trigger job right out of the box. The problem is that no one gets one or even sends it back to Smith to get the spec trigger (Which is free)
I did not think that you were flaming me in your post. it is just that I expected to be flamed.

Chris
I would be pleased to try your S&W M&P 40C. Thanks for the offer.
 
JimConway said:
M1911
I did not think that you were flaming me in your post.
Click to expand...

If that is correct, then why does your response to my post read:
With that said, who is the next to flame me?
Click to expand...

The implication of that is pretty clear to me.

If your original post was along the lines of "If you get an M&P in MA you MUST get a trigger job because out of the box it is unmanageable...", then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
 
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Just to be clear... a "traditional" trigger job will NOT get your there. Get the repalcement sear assembly, trigger return string and the trigger bar. A little polishing/massaging will get you a great 4-4.5lb trigger. I challenge anyone to prove to me you can get a good trigger working with the stock MA parts.


My M&Ps are SWEET!
 
JimConway said:
Lugnut
That sounds very nice. I have found that a smooth trigger is the most important thing, with the pull weight in second place.
Click to expand...

I think I'll agree with you completely. [wink]

EDIT: I also asked S&W why they couldn't make the factory triggers with a more noticable reset. The product manager said it has something to do with mass producing them reliably. I gave him a puzzled look and just said "Oh".
 
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Where Jim's argument comes into play big time is with new shooters or shooters who can not afford the extra cash for a trigger job. There are many people out there who expect to buy a gun like any other product and have it work "right out of the box". I know there are many guys on here that have the time, knowledge and money to get things the way they want but not everyone does.

We can all thank the AG's office.
 
Probably the most important reason I'd advise NOT discounting the M&P is that they are much easier to get a good fit than a lot of semi-autos. I personally find Glocks and even the 1911 too big to really get a great grip. When I tried the M&P line, I found I could get a very good grip. Even the .45 with the smallest grip panels FITS!

After struggling with poor fitting guns and single stack 40's as my 'best' choice in a semi, being able to increase the round count and caliber and still get a good fit has been wonderful. I can carry 11 rounds of .45 ACP in a gun that actually FITS!

Having work done to make the action better is minimal compared to finding that good feel in the hand.

Anyway, that's my personal experience.
 
Chris
Please understand that the M&Ps that I am bothered about are the MA compliant ones.
My friends in other states love the gun. I agree that is is very comfortable for anyone to use and fits me like a well used glove
 
The stock trigger* in my M&P9 isn't any worse than the trigger in my G21. Yes, the reset is more noticeable in the G21, but that doesn't really bother me.


* = not a MA trigger.
 
Jim Conway – I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself.
I own the M&P and love it, I have no problem pulling the trigger and hitting my targets.
Just because you can’t does not make it a bad gun.
 
Instead of starting with "I strongly suggest that none of you purchase a S&W M&P," I think this thread should have simply said "I strongly suggest that none of you live in MA if you want to own a M&P."

The beef ain't with the gun, its with what MA forces S&W to do to the gun so that it can be sold in MA.

If you live in MA, you are in the minority, and wide-sweeping suggestions for what someone should or shouldn't purchase shouldnt be generalized due to your experiences with a particular version only found in MA that differs from the other 98% of M&Ps.
 
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GotGuns said:
Jim Conway – I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself.
I own the M&P and love it, I have no problem pulling the trigger and hitting my targets.
Just because you can’t does not make it a bad gun.
Click to expand...

And your location is CT. Have you tried a MA version?
 
I would describe the trigger out of the box as crunchy and heavy, as the first poster said the trigger feels like it's more than 10lbs. I do like the ergonomics of the gun and even with the cost of a trigger job it is a reasonably priced gun.
 
GotGuns said:
Jim Conway – I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself.
I own the M&P and love it, I have no problem pulling the trigger and hitting my targets.
Just because you can’t does not make it a bad gun.
Click to expand...

Did you even READ his post? He's talking about MASSACHUSETTS triggers. Oh, one more thing; HIS opinions are valued.
 
I have non-MA M&Ps and the triggers to me seem no "worse" than my glocks.

I think Jim's advice related to people buying MA M&Ps is sound though. Lots of non-internet/non-gun savy people are going to buy these pistols as their first firearms and never even know how bad of a trigger they have...

Greg Derr has done work for me, he's a great guy and a great gunsmith (and takes some awesome pictures as well). Unfortunatly, when the average guy or gal buys an M&P, the store isn't telling them to get it to Greg ASAP. From the MA triggers I've felt, I agree with Jim that S&W has put out an exceptionally poor trigger, even within the confines of the AGs rules.
 
The qoutes are from Gotguns
Jim Conway – I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself.
I own the M&P and love it, I have no problem pulling the trigger and hitting my targets.
Just because you can’t does not make it a bad gun.

I was always taught to think before you speak. In your case I suggest that you read, try to understand and only then write.
My post was about MASSACHUSETTS M&Ps. I also commented that my out of state friends (Who are great shooters)own the M&P and are happy with them. Do you understand now?

I am glad that you love your M&P

Again, If you read my post, you will never find any mention of how well I did or did not shoot it. If you must know, all of my shots were in one ragged hole at 7 yards.
Was it comfortable? YES
Was it fun to shoot? NO.
Was it easy to shoot? NO.
Was it fast to shoot? NO
Would I carry it for self defense? Absolutely NOT, unless it had a trigger job
 
Lugnut said:
Just to be clear... a "traditional" trigger job will NOT get your there. Get the repalcement sear assembly, trigger return string and the trigger bar. A little polishing/massaging will get you a great 4-4.5lb trigger. I challenge anyone to prove to me you can get a good trigger working with the stock MA parts.


My M&Ps are SWEET!
Click to expand...

I think Greg Derr said he does it with the stock MA parts.
 
My .45 has the non-Mass trigger, and it STILL sucks. I never shoot the gun as a direct result. I'm considering dumping it and getting another H&K. Utterly no comparision between the two pistols IMO.
 
You have an M&P 45 already? I'm sure people would line up to take that off your hands. I would, too, if there weren't multiple carbine releases coming up.
 
Jim, the MA trigger certainly does suck but what else is there for MA residents? As far as I can tell, there are Sigs, refurbed Glocks, S&W Sigmas and 1911's, Para 1911's and a few other choices.

It's a limited situation.
 
I have 2 M&P's and love them both. One has been massaged by Burwell so it rocks and the other has the trigger the rest of the world gets and it's also a great gun. I would recommend this gun to anyone.
 

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