Sling used in combat?

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Hey all- general question for those out there who've served-

I know how in Highpower, slings are used almost exclusively. In actual shooting qualification in the service and then in combat itself, is the sling ever used in a similar manner?

Thanks,
BB
 
jk,
as far as te army standard qual is concerned, you dont sling up. I believe you do in MC RQ, but not sure if you use the 1907 leather sling, or the standard nylon.
as to going downrange, your sling is your preference. Ive got a single point mamba that I use.
 
Hey all- general question for those out there who've served-

I know how in Highpower, slings are used almost exclusively. In actual shooting qualification in the service and then in combat itself, is the sling ever used in a similar manner?

Thanks,
BB

The Marines use the M1 sling for qualification. The USMC never adopted the Army's two slider buckle sling, as it cannot be quickly deployed as a loop sling.

I doubt anyone ever slings up in combat the traditional way. There are, however, several two-point tactical slings that can be used very effectively and very quickly as a shooting support.

The Blue Force Gear VTAC is one. I am in the brown sweater and black cap using one for both retention and support in standing and prone.

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The key thing about highpower is not to take the use of slings and try to directly copy it in a more practical setting. The key is to understand the principles of the skills learned in HP and adapt them to more practical situations. If you notice in the pics, I am the only one using the two point sling for support. Notice how the sling goes under my left forearm before it attaches to the rifle. No one else is doing that, probably because I am the only HP shooter in that photo.
 
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Nice pics Jose! Were they taken during a class?
I noticed that you also have a barrel mounted side sling adapter.
I made a test one day at the range where I slung my rifle, and really spread my shoulders to get the sling - also a VTAC - nice and tight. After firing a group at 50 yards, I noticed a sizeable left drift - because the sling was pulling the barrell with enough force. I am currently in the process of getting a rail mounted side sling adapter. Although my rails aren't free float, I think it may reduce barrel shift.
 
Slings are NOT recommended on any of the Black Guns. Unlike the M-14, M-1 Garrand, 03 etc where both swivels are on the SAME stock of wood, the M-16 has the front swivel on the barrel (bottom of Front sight mount) and the rear is on the Stock. Using a sling with ANY of the Black guns should be loose to snug, BUT NOT tight. If tight you will Pull the barrel downward (upper half from the bottom half) and will take quite a load of Elevation clicks to compensate.
Another problem created from IMPROPER sling use is, twisting the rifle into a Cant. You may find the front sight will become a 2 to 8 versus a 12 to 6 position.
In the above pictures you will note the IMPROPER Off-Hand Postions and a clear example of NOT using a solid Skeletal postion. Arms will grow tired very quickly and muscles will spasm. Shoulders should line up to the target and you should be sideways with the back locked. Let the BONES do the supporting and not the Muscles. Also each one of the people in the above pictures could easily be knocked on their butts from recoil, if it wasn't for the Buffer and spring on the black gun. Poor Positions.. Positions are everything in shooting. Try turning more sideways and have less frontal exposure.
 
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Wingwiper,

Four points:

1. There is nothing wrong with the above pictures. They are not on a bullseye range.

2. In CQB they teach you to square up to the target to maximize the protection your trauma plate provides.

3. I doubt any will be knocked on their ass by recoil.

4. I know Jose blasted you on another thread, but come on.

B
 
bpm990d

I wasn't blasting anyone. I have fired Rattle Battle Matches (Infantry Trophy) and you can still turn sideways and advance on the lead foot. When you are trying to support the Firearm out in front as the pictures show, you are relying on muscles and muscles will spasm within seconds. I merely was trying to give good advice. My experiences come from U.S.M.C., Army, M.T.U., Bullseye, Combat, Precision, High Power, Combat E.I.C., High Power E.I.C. and Rattle Battle and Top Gun, to toot my own horn a little, I NEVER lost an Off-Hand Match. A good or even a semi skeletal postion is the Best by far. I was giving constructive criticism and not trying to bash anyone. I only read the post after I posted mine, that he was in the picture. I looked at postions and gave my observations. No insults were intended. Sideways will also create less exposure for the person who is trying to shoot you. Plus, the enemy will be DEAD from the very first shot, if you have the recipe to make it an accurate shot.
I guarantee you, I could walk up to the fella with the Red Mickey Mouse ears and touch him with one finger and push him backwards. Each recoil even from the Black Gun is throwing him way off of his sight picture and he wasting time searching for it again. Even a half a step behind the other foot would be an improvement over the positions they are in.

I will also add that ONLY Jose has an EXCELLENT sight weld, his nose is right up against the charging handle (perfect) where everyone else has some distance. He has the best face plant on his Firearm. Where Jose has his face is where it should be for every postion.His sling, if I am seeing it right, is a HASTY SLING and it should be able to be pulled about 1 inch or more from his forearm, otherwise it is too tight. I also use to turn the sling a half turn to the right, prior to placing it below and High in my armpit and cross below where my watch would be and I also made sure it was way up in my armpit prior to getting back to the rear stock. I wore a glove on the forearm and held the Firearm at the collar to prevent further muscle spasms. The sling would rest across my glove so as to NOT pick up on the pulse in my wrist. It was snug and never tight. I drews ink lines on the sling for each postion and from Off-Hand to kneeling to sitting to prone, the sling had to be readjusted so it would not become to tight and draw the barrel downward. I was also able to rest the pistol grip onto the top of my left breast pocket. By holding at the Collar Ring and having my elbow tucked into my gut and my back twisted, I could remove my right arm (trigger arm) and the Firearm would be perfectly balanced and steady. The Right arm would wrap around the rear of the Firearm and prevent the Rifle from kicking upward. I would also use the right arm to pull the firearm into my shoulder. I held my Right elbow UP about even with the plane of the Firearm. Getting as close to this postion as possible, regardless of the type of shooting, will ONLY do ONE thing for the shooter.. give him more accurate shots on target. Less time will be wasted and there will be less muscle fatigue and less fighting muscle spasms.
I preferred the Cotton Web sling and not the Nylon or leather. The cotton did not slip and cause variance from repeated usage. What was marked for sitting stayed marked for sitting.

When I taught how to achieve a good Off-Hand psotion, I would take my hand and smack it against the shooter's muzzle and then watch how long and how much wiggling it took for him/her to get back on target. That is wasted time, time that the muscles are growing tired in and time that the enemy has to elminate YOU.
I read the lead question and scanned down to the box where I was to post my response and saw the pictures, I had not even noticed who posted the pictures, until after. Sorry! I don't play those games.
 
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In the above pictures you will note the IMPROPER Off-Hand Postions and a clear example of NOT using a solid Skeletal postion. Arms will grow tired very quickly and muscles will spasm. Shoulders should line up to the target and you should be sideways with the back locked. Let the BONES do the supporting and not the Muscles. Also each one of the people in the above pictures could easily be knocked on their butts from recoil, if it wasn't for the Buffer and spring on the black gun. Poor Positions.. Positions are everything in shooting. Try turning more sideways and have less frontal exposure.

Here's $1, now go buy a clue.

Better yet, buy some training on the real-world use of firearms, not on the contrived scenario called High Power Rifle. BTW, I am classified Master in that game. [rolleyes]

BTW, half the people in that photo are police officers, and about 3/4 of the group has taken at least one intermediate or advanced fighting course with respected trainers such as Pat Rogers, John Benner, etc.
 
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Nice pics Jose! Were they taken during a class?
I noticed that you also have a barrel mounted side sling adapter.
I made a test one day at the range where I slung my rifle, and really spread my shoulders to get the sling - also a VTAC - nice and tight. After firing a group at 50 yards, I noticed a sizeable left drift - because the sling was pulling the barrell with enough force. I am currently in the process of getting a rail mounted side sling adapter. Although my rails aren't free float, I think it may reduce barrel shift.

If your group is shifting, ease up on the sling a bit. I will give Wingwiper credit for the only thing he said that is correct. You do not want to reef on a sling attached to an M16 variant unless the barrel's floated. Snug enough to control the weapon, not Highpower tight.

This was not a formal class, but a group of NW Ohio shooters who get together each month to train and swap ideas. The group's lead is an instructor at a respected school in southern OH, and many of the group have taken some form of fighting training. Several of the group are police officers.
 
Derek

In Competition, Sight Weld was where the face was planted on the stock. It was a term we used to mean with the M-16, nose pushed against the charging handle. The same distance from the rear APPETURE TO THE EYE, for EVERY Firing Position. It was a very common phrase by the coaches at all levels of Matches. Using a Black Gun I am surprised you all have not heard the phrase. It was used in Composite Matches as well, when I fired the M-14, maybe with the smaller firearms the phrase isn't used as much. It sure was when I was shooting.[smile]

BPm990d

I didn't lose credibility, you people wouldn't know how to recognize it.
It ain't Bull shit my friend, it is FACT, I NEVER lost an Off Hand Match. I thought I could offer some good advice, guess the heads are already full. Get TonyD to contact his friend at Match HQ and then he can search my name for the National Matches at Camp Robinson, L.R. ARK, 1985 thru 1994, Then he can check the records at Ft Benning for the Forscom and All-Army Matches for the same period. Never means NEVER. Have him check the records for Quantico for the 1992 Matches. I don't like being called a BULLSHITER. Keep your wise ass comments to yourself. I offered my credentials in true sincerety to offer help. [laugh]

Jose

Well excuse me Classified Master, then you would see the unstable positions in the photos. or would you???? A Target is a target and whenever you hold a firearm or weapon it is to hit that target. You can practice THEORIES all day long. One shot from a small calibar on your Front and you are on your ass.
Real World Fighting? oh! please do CLUE ME in.
I am all ears to learn why so-called Police Officers would want to EXPOSE their Entire FRONT in any type of fighting, Oh! you have a vest. Gotcha. You Enter doorways fully exposed and with an unstable fighting position, Hell! I don't need to shoot you, I only need to touch you with my finger and knock you on your butts.? You would be a DEAD CLASSIFIED MASTER in the REAL situation. The positions are still POOR no matter what you are doing, VERY POOR. WoW! Police Officers gives them what for extra points? ZERO. .

A little note for you guys, there was NOTHING in those photos that said what they were doing. There are no buildings, no alleys no nothing. I saw photos and made a call about the very poor positions that I saw. I thought, Constructive Critisim is what this forum was about. To help others, I can see too many of you are already sold on yourselves and don't need any help, you all already know everything.
I came to this forum in hopes of finding people who enjoyed shooting, had experiences to share and pass on and who loved to shoot. I guess I was sadly mistaken. I shot with people who had names, just didn't have the Outdoor Channel filming them. Ok! Jose you know two guys names that teach you whatever, they know a BETTER Off HAND position? Why doesn't everyone use it if it is so perfect? They are still VERY POOR OFF HAND POSITIONS. I am sorry that you all feel you are the answers to the questions and then show photos such as were shown and defend very poor off-hand positions with insults and silly ass justifications about being Police Officers.That just impressed me so much. Police Officers with Rifles and most with pistols are no better than most of the shooters on any firing line.[rofl]
Hey Jose, I wouldn't give you a dollar cause I don't think you have a clue for sale.

I will leave your forum now, you already have your Classified Masters and shooters that have so much ego in the way of common sense and skill.

Good Day and you all really should pay more attention to ETHICs because your battles are just starting. Firearm is a better word to use in place of Weapon , but then again, hate to have to deflate anyones Self Esteem.
[party]
Color me Gone.. I never was able to handle the excuse like the Bad Round, Gun fired too soon, Sun was in my eyes, Hey they are Police Officers.
 
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Wingwiper, you are in Vermont, correct? Memorial Day weekend there is a big match over at Camp Ethan Allen. Some of the Top Dogs in the Northeast will be there. Good time for you shut up all of your doubters once and for all.
 
Wingwiper, if you can't make it to the matches at Camp EA, come over to Camp Perry the same weekend.

If you haven't lost an offhand match, I will pop your cherry.
 
you know two guys names that teach you whatever, they know a BETTER Off HAND position? Why doesn't everyone use it if it is so perfect? They are still VERY POOR OFF HAND POSITIONS.

I wish I could watch you talking that way to Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck, Tim Lau, or Clint Smith. [laugh]
 
I don't ever remember of the Army training us to use the sling for anything but carrying it.

They used to a loooooooooooong time ago. Not since the late 50s or early 60s. Only the Marines still teach that skill.
 
THE NEW JERSEY ARMY NATIONAL GUARD IS SENDING 15 REPRESENTATIVES FROM FOUR UNITS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ANNUAL WINSTON P. WILSON MATCHES AT CAMP ROBINSON LOCATED IN LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS on 5-11 October 2002. The Wilson Match is an Annual National Guard Marksman competition where the winning teams from all of the states and territories compete for national honors in Rifle, Pistol, and Machine Gun disciplines. This year New Jersey will be represented by soldiers from the 253d Transportation Company, 2-113th Infantry Battalion, 3-112th Field Artillery Battalion, and Headquarters, State Area Command. We wish all of the competitors the best of luck!

Now that the fact that they do have a national championship, how about dropping all this bull. This forum has avoided all the bull available on other sites to this point by the moderators limiting this pissing matches.
 
That match is for the National Guard only.

And for the record, it's "Stock Weld" not "Sight Weld".
 
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