signal cannons in Mass

[Boris]

Just for the record, I searched entire forum and could not find any threads on this at all.

A friend of mine in Mass, wants to cast (as in melt some brass and pour) a signal cannon, those are usually pretty small, but functional cannons that can range in size. Most often they are not used to shoot any projectiles and powder charge is fairly small. I got a bunch of questions related to that:

1. Is it legal to make one, as the act of fabrication itself?
2. Is it legal to posses one, as in having it in your home office? There is not way to lock it somehow to prevent firing and it's a technically a muzzle-loader.
3. Discharging one. I'm not talking about a public park, but say in my backyard or off a boat. My guess is probably no.
4. Is there some sort of process to register primitive firearms? Is there a requirement to stamp a serial number on it?
5. Selling/transferring it. Would the owner need to fill in a form, similar to other firearms?
6. Caliber. Some of the small ones could weigh a couple of pounds, but it's not too outrageous to make one that's a couple of hundred pounds. I guess by that time it's no longer a "signal" cannon. My question is: where is the line when it stops being a primitive firearm and becomes a WMD?

any links specific to Mass laws would be appreciated.

 

[drgrant]

Owning +making is legal.

Discharge requires a license. (not easily obtained).

This is the short answer of course.


-Mike

 

[Kevlar]

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Not without a cannoneer's license
4. No
5. No
6. Bore size is unregulated

...any links specific to Mass laws would be appreciated.

527 CMR 22.00 regulates cannon and mortar firing...

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr_secured/527022.pdf

 

[Rob Boudrie]

One of the folks at my local club has a Cannoeer's license. He had to go to the fire training academy in Sudbury and take a written exam that consisted of something like "describe each step in the firing process".

 

[terraformer]

527 CMR 22.00 regulates cannon and mortar firing...

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr_secured/527022.pdf

Sadly some large number of people got paid way too much to write up that stupidity. When I grew up, we had cross country races and other events start with cannons. This would be impossible in MA.
They even prohibit the use of torches...

One of the folks at my local club has a Cannoeer's license. He had to go to the fire training academy in Sudbury and take a written exam that consisted of something like "describe each step in the firing process".

I am sure that these regs were put in place after a raft of serious cannoneering fatalities and wild fires.

 

[Mcameron]

I am sure that these regs were put in place after a raft of serious cannoneering fatalities and wild fires.

no no.....they were after all those illegal assault cannons flooded the market and were the weapon of choice of rampaging mad men.......

 

[swampy]

A few years ago a civil war reinactment resulted in the guy that fired the cannon being charged with something relating to not having the proper permit. It might have been in Sutton.

A friend of mine was arrested 30ish years ago for using a home made cannon to signal the start of happy hour at a campground. He was charged with possession of an infernal machine and disturbing the peace but it was dropped to possession of fireworks then dismissed.

 

[Boris]

many thanks for the link on regulations and answers. I didn't realize how detailed they went in "canonnier" certification. Real bummer, there is no easy way to drive out into the desert and shoot it though.

 

[drgrant]

many thanks for the link on regulations and answers. I didn't realize how detailed they went in "canonnier" certification. Real bummer, there is no easy way to drive out into the desert and shoot it though.

Drive it up to NH and shoot it there. The regs are a lot less obnoxious I don't even think there really are any. Hell, at one of the NES shoot locations we have up there, cannons are explicitly invited.

-Mike

 

[Terminator03]

This is all new to me. When I was a teen, I had a friend whose father not only owned a decent sized cannon, but would actually fire it off at family functions like their 4th of July picnic. I'm pretty sure it used carbide as the propellant. I don't think he had any actual projectile, other than wadding material, but he used to shoot it over the river behind their property. I never remeber there being any problems with police, neighbors, etc. Guess he was pretty lucky...

 

[Twigg]

there is no easy way to drive out into the desert and shoot it though.

Drive it up to NH and shoot it there. The regs are a lot less obnoxious I don't even think there really are any. Hell, at one of the NES shoot locations we have up there, cannons are explicitly invited.

-Mike

Oh heck yeah, Monadnock R&G is definatly "cannon friendly", they used to have cannon shoots there.

At some of the recent NES shoots here there have been miniature cannon, signal cannon and a homemade projectile firing cannon (with a 3" bore IIRC).

 

[MichaelJR]

Cannoneer....first thing I want to say when I hear that word is "aaarrrghhh" in the best pirate voice I can muster, and bust out my cutlass

 

[Broc]

Cannoneer....first thing I want to say when I hear that word is "aaarrrghhh" in the best pirate voice I can muster, and bust out my cutlass

but you dont have one of these:

I do. LOL

 

[MichaelJR]

but you dont have one of these:

I do. LOL

DUDE THAT'S F***ING AWESOME

 

[Broc]

DUDE THAT'S F***ING AWESOME

Thanks.
Chris from broad street tattoo in bridgewater, Ma did it.

 

[Boris]

Drive it up to NH and shoot it there. The regs are a lot less obnoxious I don't even think there really are any. Hell, at one of the NES shoot locations we have up there, cannons are explicitly invited.

-Mike

challenge excepted.


I was thinking about being a d*** and calling in to ask if cannonier permit allowed work with mortars or if I had to get a bombardier permit instead.

 

[TFLeader]

Mass 527 CMR

527 CMR Definitions:

"Cannon. Any gun designed to be fired from a carriage resting on the ground and which is loaded from the muzzle with rigid non-combustible black powder cartridge."

Appears that breech loading devices, like the Winchester 1898 Signal Cannon, which uses 10 gauge blanks, is exempt.

Also does anyone know what a "rigid non-combustible black powder cartridge" is? I remember folks loading cannons with loose powder.

 

[Twigg]

Winchester 1898 Signal Cannon, which uses 10 gauge blanks, is exempt.

Also does anyone know what a "rigid non-combustible black powder cartridge" is? I remember folks loading cannons with loose powder.

Probably a 10 gauge blank shotshell ?

Loose powder ? I'm no expert on cannons but at the "Live Free or Die" Festival last year my son & I were "Volunteered" to help crew the cannons the re-enactors were using and all the powder was portioned out in plastic bags.

 

[Diesel Kiki]

Cannons are fired all over the waterfront during the summer. Four of the yacht clubs in Marblehead have cannons fire at colors twice a day. July 4th sounds like an artillery battle. I'm guessing this is a law that doesn't really get enforced.

 

[Boris]

Cannons are fired all over the waterfront during the summer. Four of the yacht clubs in Marblehead have cannons fire at colors twice a day. July 4th sounds like an artillery battle. I'm guessing this is a law that doesn't really get enforced.

from my experience sailing out of Marblehead, those comrades are "more equal than others"

On the sons of guns show (I wander if they know about the origin) they drive out to the swap to test things out. With casting defects always a possibility, it's always a good idea to proof fire the cannon with a larger charge. I don't know if that's a possibility even in NH, unless you know a large landowner.

"rigid non-combustible black powder cartridge" makes no sense. Is the "non-combustable" suppose to refer to the cartridge? Some cannons are loaded with cartoushes, i.e. the measured powder charge is in sewn into cloth container that would mostly disintegrate. That was the "speedloading" back then.

Also, "carriage resting on the ground" does not apply to boats or a cannon on a raft in a bathtub. These "legalese" terms confuse the crap out of me.

 

[Trebor]

It depends - the CMR is only for guns. If you look at how they define cannon, it is a gun that is ground mounted (rather than hand-held).

So if your signal device is a gun, then it is regulated. If it is just a signal device (such as a thunder mug), then it is not a cannon, as defined by MA law.

They may be able to call it a firework though, as it is designed to make noise by explosive.

 

[chinalfr]

Go up to stateline gun shop in Mason NH on June 2. Dan fired his cannon every hour throughout the day.

 

[Bob J]

Probably a 10 gauge blank shotshell ?

Loose powder ? I'm no expert on cannons but at the "Live Free or Die" Festival last year my son & I were "Volunteered" to help crew the cannons the re-enactors were using and all the powder was portioned out in plastic bags.

I use tin foil cartridges for my "beer can" mortar.... The tin foil helps prevent the accidental ignition of a charge when loaded if there are any smoldering embers from the previous charge....

Greybeard Outdoors has one of the best cannon/mortar forums that I have found to date...

Here is a thread that goes into a fair amount of detail for an upcoming design/casting effort:

Group buy-group pour, bronze 24 PDR Coehorn golf ball mortar

Lots of good discussion on design/pour considerations...

 

[ArmedMainer]

[

Go up to stateline gun shop in Mason NH on June 2. Dan fired his cannon every hour throughout the day.

How big a cannon does he have ? Sounds pretty cool.

 

[namedpipes]

many thanks for the link on regulations and answers. I didn't realize how detailed they went in "canonnier" certification. Real bummer, there is no easy way to drive out into the desert and shoot it though.

NH. Check out Spring Trigger Breakout coming up!

Drive it up to NH and shoot it there. The regs are a lot less obnoxious I don't even think there really are any. Hell, at one of the NES shoot locations we have up there, cannons are explicitly invited.

Don't bring a cannon without talking with the shoot organizers first (NES user Monadnock). But, yes, cannon have been very welcome there.

Oh heck yeah, Monadnock R&G is definatly "cannon friendly", they used to have cannon shoots there.

At some of the recent NES shoots here there have been miniature cannon, signal cannon and a homemade projectile firing cannon (with a 3" bore IIRC).

Bob J's cement filled tennis balls

 

[namedpipes]

It depends - the CMR is only for guns. If you look at how they define cannon, it is a gun that is ground mounted (rather than hand-held).

So if your signal device is a gun, then it is regulated. If it is just a signal device (such as a thunder mug), then it is not a cannon, as defined by MA law.

They may be able to call it a firework though, as it is designed to make noise by explosive.

You're going to get someone in trouble if they follow that advice.

I have a thunder mug. It does require a cannoneer's license to fire in Mass AND a permit to fire it from the town.

 

[drgrant]

Cannons are fired all over the waterfront during the summer. Four of the yacht clubs in Marblehead have cannons fire at colors twice a day. July 4th sounds like an artillery battle. I'm guessing this is a law that doesn't really get enforced.

You'd mostly be right on that front. Go in the middle of nowhere and nobody will care.

BTW most of the Yacht clubs use 12 or 10 gauge blanks, so those probaby aren't cannons under MGL.

-Mike

 

[chinalfr]

[How big a cannon does he have ? Sounds pretty cool.

 

[excoastie]

I have a cannon but have not shot the thing since bringing it back from New York. It is a Mountain Howitzer. I need to replace the two wheels as they are in terrible shape. I have found some 42 inch wheels for about $400 per. That is the best I can find. Also, I still need to get my cannoneer’s license in Massachusetts.

We shot it every hunting season in NY. Believe me, you know when it goes BOOM! In NY, one does not even have to call the fire department when you are going to shoot one off there. We just let her fly! Of course, we are far in the woods so maybe the fire department folks didn’t care.

 

[CJKarl]

but you dont have one of these:

I do. LOL

No, but I have one of these.