I only get to run the AR a half dozen times per year and I feel like I'm always zeroing it. is this normal? I suspect it's because I'm running all different types of ammo and it's not usually the same stuff back to back and it's typically bulk federal, win, privi, etc. I'm running an Aimpoint micro T1 on a good quality AR, punching paper at 50yds. Thoughts?
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Sighting AR - am i chasing my tail?
- Thread starter PineTar
- Start date
I have noticed a significant difference in point of impact between different types of ammo. I mainly shoot Federal brass .556 (XM193), but I also have a couple of cases of soft point Russian stuff. They both group just fine, but the groups are about 5-6" apart at 100 yards.
If you aren't shooting a ton, I would recommend picking the ammo that groups the best and buying a bunch of it. It's not fun having to re-zero your gun every time you go to the range.
If you aren't shooting a ton, I would recommend picking the ammo that groups the best and buying a bunch of it. It's not fun having to re-zero your gun every time you go to the range.
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Good point, my groups are decent and as you mentioned they end up the same 5-6inches apart given different ammo, I'm also not expecting clover leafs with a red dot thats slightly splotchy to me with a slight astigmatism.
KBCraig
NES Member
To improve your shooting, focus on the group size. Quit chasing the zero: set it for milspec, or whatever you plan to use if SHTF, and then leave it alone.
Remember the difference between accuracy and precision, If you're precise, you can always adjust POA as needed.
Remember the difference between accuracy and precision, If you're precise, you can always adjust POA as needed.
xtry51
NES Member
Pick an ammo you like and can afford, and zero the gun with it benched at 50 or 100yds. And I mean a specific ammo, not just a bullet weight. Then only buy that ammo from now on. Stop buying random ammo, you're not going to learn how to shoot doing that.
And if you're shooting at 50yds your group SHOULD NOT BE MOVING 6 INCHES.
I don't know what Gillman is talking about, but if you're getting 6" diff at 50yds either you don't know how to shoot or your optic is on a shitty mount and moving.
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Seriously, "being on paper" at 50 yards is NOT an acceptable zero. Even if that paper is a normal 8.5x11. Because if you're 4 inches off at 50, you're 16" off at 200. I.e. You can't even hit a person when aiming center mass.
And if you're shooting at 50yds your group SHOULD NOT BE MOVING 6 INCHES.
I don't know what Gillman is talking about, but if you're getting 6" diff at 50yds either you don't know how to shoot or your optic is on a shitty mount and moving.
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Seriously, "being on paper" at 50 yards is NOT an acceptable zero. Even if that paper is a normal 8.5x11. Because if you're 4 inches off at 50, you're 16" off at 200. I.e. You can't even hit a person when aiming center mass.
xtry51
NES Member
I don't even know what this means. Either you're zeroed or you're not. Zero is not a "mil spec".
Good advice right here. Xtry tuned one of my ARs (Aimpoint Comp4) ,and then explained and showed me the ammo differences, then a certain French Man gave me some of his Black Hills ammo and all of a sudden I was a friggin ninja. But with a rifle.
If you know your different types of ammo shoot high or low 6", adjust your point of aim (if it matters to you).
No one said anything about shooting 200 yards. Like I said, if you're shooting at 50 yards and you're point of impact is high or low 6", you don't have anything to worry about.
Now if you start talking about shooting at 200 yards, are you shooting from a bench? Supported? Prone? Kneeling? Off-hand? a 2 or 4 MOA dot on what size target? That 6" spread at 50 yards, magnified at 200 yards won't matter if you're bouncing all over with a 1x RDS. You're going to miss.
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Pick some ammo and stay with it. Stop jumping all over the place. Don't make it harder than it is.
xtry51
NES Member
Seriously, do you even shoot? If so have you ever hit anything?
There is no way you can switch ammo in an AR15 of any quality or barrel length, put any type of ammo in it, shoot at 50yds and get two groups that are 6" apart unless you literally don't know how to aim a gun at which point having a zero is moot.
If he's standing at 50 yards, he could easily get a 6" spread. It doesn't say he's shooting from the bench.
Cloverleaf Firearms Group
Instructor
This whole thread is confusing to me.
ochmude
Marine Veteran
I think what xtry is trying to say is there's a difference between a single group with a spread of 6" and two or more groups that are 6" apart but with the same point of aim.
Are you removing your optic at all in between range trips? Even going from 55 grain to 77grain, you shouldn't be opening up that much (even at all) while zeroing at 25/50 yards.
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xtry51
NES Member
This is what I'm saying.
Though I'd still stress at 50yds you should not even see a 6" group. Maybe 4" with the Aimpoint, really bad ammo like Tula/Wolf steel and a shooter with bad eye sight from a benched position.
If you have reasonable vision and any brass ammo you should be able to shoot a 2" group or less at 50 from a bench with any Aimpoint.
Then absolutely, I agree with you 100%.
If he's got loose optics, I would imagine he'd have more issues getting a grouping to determine that the sight had been zero'ed; let alone determine that he's got a 6" drop between different types of ammo.
I just don't know if the OP is one of those guys who shoots a round, adjusts his sights, shoots a round - rinse and repeat.
Cloverleaf Firearms Group
Instructor
I was shooting 1.5" groups with Wolf Steel and a 2 moa PA dot at our last meeting. I can't imagine any type of zeroing scenario that would result in POI shifts of 5" to 6", but I'm not a ballistics wizard.
What about not enough trigger time (he did say he only shoots the AR about 6 times a year)? Shooting with a winter coat on one day, another time a t-shirt. Offhand with a sling, offhand without a sling. Cheek weld being different every shot.
I guess I don't have enough information to guess why his shots at 50 would be 6" off target.
Cloverleaf Firearms Group
Instructor
Info is always good. He said it groups 'fine' (could use a definition of fine), and the groups are 5-6 apart using different ammo.
Category 5 hurricane, 9.0 earthquake, or...
I'm shaking my head that's so "terrible".
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
ochmude
Marine Veteran
Something like this, a simple lack of consistency between shot strings, is all I can figure. I feel the most likely answer is that the OP believes he's shooting the same point of aim each time, but his natural point of aim is in fact shifting. Either that or his rifle is only capable of 12 MOA, lol.
My lack of info clustered this a bit, my bad. I group @ 2" or better, bench rest and groups don't jump around at all. It's the point of impact vs point of aim that changes each trip which got me thinking that zero was going off - groups would still be fine, POI would would be slightly off from expected. I was questioning ammo, environment, etc. The aimpoint is 2moa is on a larue mount, no movement.
You can see a shift in point of impact from point of aim. It really depends on the differences in the ammo and if your gun likes that ammo. It also is dependent on the quality of the ammo.
If your buying some discount bulk pack ammo you could see velocity difference vary widely in one box. I lost all my data when computer crashed. I did some velocity testing on many different brands.
The worst was a 1k round case of loose 5.56(m193) it ran as hot as 3100fps and as low as 2700fps.
Now the issue of knowing how to shoot , is it you , the gun , ammo. This takes some time.
The best thing to do is have some one who really knows how to shoot shoot your rifle.
My dad taught me how to shoot. He said it's how he was taught to shoot in the army.
1. If the rifle was on target at 25 yards that was good enough. I will explain.
My dad would place a large sheet of paper at 25 yards. With a 2" bullseye. I would shoot from prone position aiming center of the pull. I would shoot 5 3 shot groups.
If your aiming the same every time the groups will be in the same spot. My dad refused to adjust the sights until those 5 groups where with in a 3" group any where on the target.
Only then would he adjust the sights to point of aim point of impact.
I found a link out there on the inter web about the army doing the same thing.. basically you would not "ZERO" your weapon until you could group consistently. It seems you can group
By memory I belief you had to shoot 5 consecutive 3 shot groups with each group be less than 1.77" before moving on to zeroing.
Once you do this as mentioned buy some ammo find a type/manufacture and if possible same lot number and buy as,much as you can.
Even shooting a different manufacture the jacket could be different thickness,metal and create problems.
I do believe if your getting 6" differences from center to center of different ammo groups at 50 yards something might be amiss.
I started a thread touching on this a bit. It's not so about impact shift but just what you can see with different ammo in different guns....with a bit of reloading tossed in.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-A-quick-comparison-of-different-bullets-ammo
Basically zero for the basic ammo you will use the most. M193 or what have you.
I shoot for groups when I'm just range plinking. I don't have time to fiddle with adjusting.
My last note. Try to keep records on what ammo does what.
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