"sight" alignment

milktree

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Ok, here's another newbie question:

How do you align the bead(s) with your eye and rib when you shoot?

My first shotgun, a Mossberg 5500 MK-II, only had a single bead at the muzzle. I'd put my cheek on the comb so as I looked down the rib the effective "height" of the rib was as tall as the height of the bead, and I'd put the target that same height again above the bead.

That worked well. I was regularly shooting in the high teens, a good run was in the low 20s. I got a 24 once. (that made me happy)

However I wanted an O/U, so I tried my friend's Lanber 2087, and the Mossberg method didn't work as well. He said (if I remember correctly) he put the bead right on the bird, and couldn't see any of the rib, or just a sliver of it.

I ended up with a Browning Cynergy (a very very pretty gun that handles nicely, it's too good for me) and it has two beads. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to align stuff with it.

One person told me that the mid-bead should be directly obscuring the front bead (line them up) and another told me the two beads should make an "8". (one just over the other.) I can't remember what either person said about where the target should go in those two setups.

So, what kind of gun do you have, how many beads does it have, and how do you align them with respect to each other and the target? What kind of shooting do you do with that alignment? I understand trap setups will tend to shoot higher for the same alignment to take advantage of the rising target. The Cynergy isn't a trap specific gun (as far as I know) so it should shoot like a skeet or sporting clays gun, right?

Don't be shy! Tell me what you do that works for you. There are no wrong answers!
 
Don't look at the bead. You're not shooting the bead. Look at the bird.

Your eye is the rear sight. If the comb of the stock is too high ( though if you can "touch" the beads I'd say that that is not a problem ) you'll tend to shoot high.

Unless the gun is a dedicated Trap gun that's designed to "shoot high," having the bird just over the bead is a good place to start.

Try this: Lock the trap to throw straight aways, and point naturally, looking past the bead at the target. If it breaks, good. If not, lower the bead a bit ( target should not be hidden by the bead) If you're worried about getting the bead to just touch the bird, by the time you have everything aligned, it will be too late. With rifle shooting a stable, precision hold is required. Do that on the trap range and you'll not be a happy camper.

After you get so most of the straight aways break, move one station to the side, then to the other side, etc.

My gun is an old Browning A5, no rib, one bead, that's all i need. The bead(s) , rib, etc is only used to align the rear sight (your eye) to the front of the gun. Your focus shifts to the trap house, and you call pull. Since you're holding the gun correctly, with a nice, solid "wood on wood" cheek weld, and you and the gun are a unit... you look at the bird and pull the trigger.

My nephew lost the bead from his Beretta half way through a round an didn't notice.

And there a plenty of wrong answers! If there weren't there'd be nothing to argue about between rounds! [laugh]
 
Don't look at the bead. You're not shooting the bead. Look at the bird.

Yep, doing that. (I think)


Your eye is the rear sight. If the comb of the stock is too high ( though if you can "touch" the beads I'd say that that is not a problem ) you'll tend to shoot high.

Ok, this makes me think that I'm thinking about this too much like a highpower shooter, and not enough like a shotgun shooter. I can get my cheek down on the comb for the beads to just touch, overlap, or have a tiny gap between them pretty easily and consistently, based on how much "push" I put into the comb. If I'm reading you right, all three of those are "good enough" so long as I'm consistant. The rest can be sorted out by target alignment (how I hold the bead with respect to the target) Yes, I know it's not highpower or bullseye, look at the target, not the sight :)



Unless the gun is a dedicated Trap gun that's designed to "shoot high," having the bird just over the bead is a good place to start.

If I ask how much "just over" is, you'll tell me I'm thinking about it too hard, right? :)

Try this: Lock the trap to throw straight aways, and point naturally, looking past the bead at the target. If it breaks, good. If not, lower the bead a bit ( target should not be hidden by the bead) If you're worried about getting the bead to just touch the bird, by the time you have everything aligned, it will be too late. With rifle shooting a stable, precision hold is required. Do that on the trap range and you'll not be a happy camper.

After you get so most of the straight aways break, move one station to the side, then to the other side, etc.

My gun is an old Browning A5, no rib, one bead, that's all i need. The bead(s) , rib, etc is only used to align the rear sight (your eye) to the front of the gun. Your focus shifts to the trap house, and you call pull. Since you're holding the gun correctly, with a nice, solid "wood on wood" cheek weld, and you and the gun are a unit... you look at the bird and pull the trigger.

Ok, this confirms a bunch of what I suspected. Thank you. Now I just have to practice. Luckily, that's fun.
 
The only way to learn how your stock fits you is NOT by "getting a good sight picture".

This is how:

Make up a target approximately 2 feet x 2 feet or 4 sq.ft., place it down range 20 yards relax a few minutes, now pick up your shotgun and snap point your shotgun at the target as if it were a grouse or clay bird trying to get out of range. Repeat this procedure 4 or 5 times, now if you had to make any adjustment whatsoever to get on that target, simply put, your shotgun stock DOES NOT FIT YOU.

DO NOT AIM. Focus on the target paper and pull that trigger the second the gun mount is complete.

Or you can pay a real shotgun fitter to measure you and fit the gun to yourself.
 
I'm assuming you want the gun to shoot where you look when you start with an unmounted gun. Starting with a pre-mounted gun tells you nothing.
 
Gun fit and gun mount is key. Mount the gun with your eyes closed. When you open your eyes what do the beads look like for alignment?

I had a older timer come up to me, said. "boy you keep looking @ the pipe and not the bird" He then blackened out both my beeds with a marker. I shot a 23 the next round from mid teens before.

The only thing the beads should be used for is to allign your eye in line with the rib. do the blind mount and get back with what you see.

also a patern test like above is a good starting point also
 
I concurr with mac.

For a gun that's to be used for trap, you have the luxury of adjusting your head position before you call for the bird. That does not mean that you should sue a gun that you have to contort yourself to use...it still needs to fit, and mac's closed-eye procedure is spot-on.

No fit, no hit.

Another very important step is....relax! If you're tense, then you'll not have the fluidity of motion that you need. There's no $ riding on the round, so chill. I had one new shooter that was holding the gun so tightly, he was squeezing oil out of the stock! [wink] I had to tell him jokes to take his mind off the "gottagetthebirdgottagetthebird" that was running through his head, and drowning out the basic stuff. You do need to focus on the target, but IMO you can only do that comfortably and effectively when you've done the "stance, gun mount, sight picture, breathe in and out, call for the bird" a few times so that it becomes at least a bit automatic, and you can devote your brain power to the target.
 
I help fit shotguns to the athletes on a youth team. I found this book very helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Stock-Fitters-Bible-Rollin-Oswald/dp/1451570384

Stock Fitter's Bible - Rollin Oswald

Stock Fitter's Bible was written for one purpose, to help clay target shooters improve their scores. As you read you will understand why the book has received so many rave reviews. Coaches and trainers teach specific gun mounts, stances and body postures (shooting forms). To shoot up to your full potential, you must use a correct form. To do that, your gun must have stock dimensions that allow someone of your individual size and shape to use the form. If your gun doesn't fit you, a correct form cannot be used - it's that simple. To help you shoot better, the book explains step by step, how your gun can be made to fit you. When it fits, you can expect smoother, more accurate swings, higher, more consistent scores and reduced felt recoil. It also explains how to see targets better, how to effectively visualize targets before calling for them, ways to reduce stress and to postpone fatigue. Almost anyone can improve their shooting. Stock Fitter's Bible explains how to do it.
 
I got that book and yes it helped me. Then I used what I learned to fit my wife to her gun with a Wenig stock.
 
This has, IMO, been an excellent thread.

A lot of opinions, some somewhat contrradictory, but all "correct".

One thing to remember about Trap shooting, is that there is often no one-size-fits-all answer. Go to the range and watch some experienced shooters, and look at the people, not the birds. Different stances, different gun mounts, different reactions to "no target" calls.

Were my 11-y.o. son to come out to the range today to learn the game, much of what he does would be considered, if not wrong, less than ideal, and I'd try to correct it. However, since he came back from the registered shoots that we attended with more "hardware" than I, and generally a higher score as well....I leave him alone!

The bottom line is that there is no "carved in stone" correct answer to many of the questions, only experimentation to find what works best for the individual. After a bit of shooting, and getting the hang of the basics, asking a more-experiencd shooter for pointers can be a help. But, at the beginning, don't try to overload yourself with information, as the thinking gets in the way of the bird-breaking!

One suggestion that I'll put out there: at my club, several of our newer shooters keep pocket notebooks in their shooting vests, and record each round's score. This seems to be an excellent system, as "what went right, what went wrong", tracked over time, can help.


Now....we've discussed shot size, gun mounting and the advisability of dry-fire practice.....who's up for a discussion of "the RIGHT choke"? [rofl]
 
Now....we've discussed shot size, gun mounting and the advisability of dry-fire practice.....who's up for a discussion of "the RIGHT choke"? [rofl]

So, which one is the right one? :)

My 5500 came with one choke tube. I use it.

The Lanber came with six, but they seem to be three each of two sizes.

The Cynergy came with three, I put the "full" in the box and used the other two. I start with the more open of the two, using the tighter for the second shot when doing doubles.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure I can't tell the difference.
 
Oh, hell...you've opened a can of worms!

My A5 was made before such newfangled things were invented - it has a very full choke.

Most trap shooters use full, some Improved Modified (one smidge more open than full). For handicap, full is the most popular. My son just picked up an Extra-full for 'caps.

I've shot decent rounds with a modifed choke.

A lot comes down to how your individual gun handles a given load.

My Browning probably patterns more tightly now than it did when it was new, as it pre-dates plastic shot cup wads, and those tend to help the pattern stay tight.

If you can't tell the difference and you're happy with your performance, then it's not an issue....

From personal experience, shooters reach plateaus, and after a [possibly miserably long time [crying] ] move up to the next one. All of a sudden, it will "click" and you'll realize what you have to do.

That's why it's so much fun! [laugh]

If you're serious about it, you need to pattern your gun, at the range that you customarilly take the birds. Then be prepared for more of the head-meat work second-guessing yourself. [wink]
 
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