Shrinking the permit via photocopy

Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14
Likes
0
Has anyone actually had an encounter with the police where they presented the laminated photocopy to them?

The RSA says:
"No person shall carry a loaded pistol or revolver in any vehicle or concealed upon his person... ...without a valid license therefor as hereinafter provided."

I suppose it depends on the definition of "without"?

The RSA also says:
"The license shall be in duplicate and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee."

So they have already copied it....

But has anyone actually given a photocopy they made to the police, and if so, how did it go?
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14
Likes
0
I did that to my NH permit. I went to have it laminated at Staples and they shrunk it to credit card size and laminated it. Cost was really cheap I think $1.00.

Yes, but have you actually had an encounter with police where you showed them your copy?

- - - Updated - - -

How big is the freakin permit they give you? The MA ones are the size of a license.

Its like a 4x6 note card, except the paper they use is basically see through.
 
Last edited:
Rating - 100%
23   0   0
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
14,292
Likes
2,133
Location
New Hampshire
There's no such thing as a permit in NH. It's a license. [wink]

- - - Updated - - -

Its like a 4x6 note card, except the paper they use is basically see through.

The resident ones are tissue paper thin. The good thing is you don't actually need it on you. But I Xeroxed mine after I got it.

The non-res ones are credit card sized.
 

Hiltonizer

Banned
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
6,701
Likes
1,463
Location
NH
I used lam paper on mine and trimmed it down with a paper cutter maybe a quarter of an inch or around the edges so it folded nicely into my wallet... but I haven't had to deal with 5.0 so ymmv.

I can't find the RSA at the moment, but IIRC the physical license isn't important so long as there's record of a current one. That said, I keep mine on me "in the event".
 

Prepper

NES Member
Rating - 100%
11   0   0
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
25,991
Likes
19,859
I've been wondering this too. I scanned mine and printed it smaller. I asked the lady at the front desk of the police station, and she looked worried about suggestions of carrying a smaller copy. But then suggested I should keep the original in the glove box at least, if I was going to have a copy in my wallet.
 

PeterGV

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
235
Likes
46
Location
Approximate
It doesn't matter if you shrink it, laminate it, or enlarge it to poster size. In New Hampshire, there is no need for you to carry a copy of your license.

They keep a copy of your license at your town. There is no copy of your license anywhere else, except the original given to you. If your town is computerized and sophisticated, the PD will record that you've been issued a license and this information can be available to your town's emergency services dispatcher (typically, by address -- it is very common to hear officers ask dispatch "are there any weapons listed at that residence?"). If you live in a small town like I do, they do something else with the copy of your license that they keep. In my town, they keep copies of all the licenses with a rubber band around them in a brown paper envelope on the police chief's desk. Seriously.

Again, don't worry about whether it's OK to photocopy, shrink, or laminate it. It's fine. Because you don't even NEED to carry it. It's NOT legally required. I've never been asked for mine. Now, having SAID that, I *do* keep a shrunk laminated copy of my license in my wallet "just in case" it could be helpful at some point. But you are not required to carry it or produce it. Not ever. This is New Hampshire. Live free or die. Don't you love it?
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
897
Likes
45
Location
Where there once was a man in the mountain
This is not legal advice, but I asked this same question of a well known firearms lawyer in NH, and the answer was "I do the same thing" (shrink and laminate a copy of it for my wallet). They also stated that this has not been tested in court yet, so there is no actual 'proof' as to it's legality.
 

Rob Boudrie

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
42,951
Likes
24,605
This is not legal advice, but I asked this same question of a well known firearms lawyer in NH, and the answer was "I do the same thing" (shrink and laminate a copy of it for my wallet). They also stated that this has not been tested in court yet, so there is no actual 'proof' as to it's legality.

The real question is "Is an offense committed by someone who holds a NH CCW and carries a gun without said CCW on his/her person?". There is considerable evidence to suggest the answer is "no".
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
2,629
Likes
186
Location
Hooksett NH
I was wondering the same thing? So the towns issuing chief keeps a copy but does state police get a copy to computerize the license? How do you prove you have your ccw if its not on you? And if its altered how can they not say this isn't a license and arrest you?
 
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
10,001
Likes
4,384
Location
WNW of MHT
TMK, the only reason to every show anybody your original P&R License would be to purchase a handgun in a private sale (RSA 159:14)

I was wondering the same thing? So the towns issuing chief keeps a copy but does state police get a copy to computerize the license? How do you prove you have your ccw if its not on you? And if its altered how can they not say this isn't a license and arrest you?
Nothing sent to the state, and no requirement that the licensee carry the original (see the PGNH FAQ). All the more reason to repeal the need for a license entirely.


RSA 159:6 said:
The license shall be in duplicate and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee. The original shall be delivered to the licensee and the duplicate shall be preserved by the people issuing the same for 4 years.

Nowhere in the law is a requirement to carry or show the pistol/revolver license; I don't think the resident license would survive four years in my wallet. If a cop stops you and wants to validate that you actually have a carry license, then he can call the issuing authority and ask. Having a copy (even reduced in size) with the serial number might speed up that process, slightly.
 
Last edited:

PeterGV

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
235
Likes
46
Location
Approximate
Is that that folks don't read the previous posts in the thread, or is it that they don't believe what I've written?

See reply number 8 on page 1 of this thread. Specifically:

It doesn't matter if you shrink it, laminate it, or enlarge it to poster size. In New Hampshire, there is no need for you to carry a copy of your license.

They keep a copy of your license at your town. There is no copy of your license anywhere else, except the original given to you. If your town is computerized and sophisticated, the PD will record that you've been issued a license and this information can be available to your town's emergency services dispatcher (typically, by address -- it is very common to hear officers ask dispatch "are there any weapons listed at that residence?"). If you live in a small town like I do, they do something else with the copy of your license that they keep. In my town, they keep copies of all the licenses with a rubber band around them in a brown paper envelope on the police chief's desk. Seriously.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14
Likes
0
It doesn't matter if you shrink it, laminate it, or enlarge it to poster size. In New Hampshire, there is no need for you to carry a copy of your license.

...

Again, don't worry about whether it's OK to photocopy, shrink, or laminate it. It's fine. Because you don't even NEED to carry it. It's NOT legally required.

Did you read my OP? Ill post the RSA again. Seems it is legally required:

RSA 159:4
No person shall carry a loaded pistol or revolver in any vehicle or concealed upon his person, except in his dwelling, house or place of business, without a valid license therefor as hereinafter provided.

So if you are "without" the license that was "hereinafter provided" Then you are in violation of RSA 159:4. What does it mean to be "without"?

The Definition of "without" from Dictionary.com:
1. with the absence, omission, or avoidance of; not with; with no or none of; lacking: without help; without shoes; without her helping me; without him to help.

2. free from; excluding: a world without hunger.

3. not accompanied by: Don't go without me.

4. at, on, or to the outside of; outside of: both within and without the house or the city.

5. beyond the compass, limits, range, or scope of (now used chiefly in opposition to within ): whether within or without the law.

If you are without your keys, can you start your car? Maybe you "have" them on the counter, but you are "without" them when you go to leave....

I think the RSA should change to read "without having been issued a license that has not been subsequently revoked, suspended, or expired.... etc" Then shrinking it and laminating it would definitely not be a question.

All that said in most circumstances, you probably won't be tried for this law if you have a valid permit on record. But, lets be honest, if you have to show your permit (photocopy or otherwise) you are already in some legal hot water. And if the DA cant get you for whatever it is you did to put you in that hot water in the first place (even if you did nothing wrong... like say loaded open carry in a vehicle) they will look to hit you with some other tangentially related violation.... So why give them the opportunity?

I trimmed mine down and folded it in half then laminated it. I actually folded the seal in so that it cant be seen unless the lamination is removed. Fits in my wallet now. Even though it is folded and not completely visible, I am "WITH" the license. I also carry a shrunken photo copy laminated.
 

PeterGV

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
235
Likes
46
Location
Approximate
You're seriously over thinking this. The law places no requirement to be in possession of the license. It just requires that you have been issued such a license. If the requirement was to have the license in your posession, itvwouldvsay so... Like the law for the drivers license does:

Every person driving a motor vehicle shall have his driver's license upon his person or in the vehicle in some easily accessible place and shall display the same on demand of and manually surrender the same into the hands of the demanding officer for the inspection thereof

Having said that, I agree the law could be more clear and I agree carrying a copy is a wise idea. No harm done, but no legal requirement to do so.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
367
Likes
17
Location
New Hampshire
The PD in my town does the shrink thing for you and give its to you with the full size one,so I doubt there is any issue with a cc size one.

I have yet to see a requirement that you have the CC license on you but with the CC size its so easy why not.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
5,208
Likes
5,565
Location
New Hampshire
Did you read my OP? Ill post the RSA again. Seems it is legally required:

RSA 159:4


So if you are "without" the license that was "hereinafter provided" Then you are in violation of RSA 159:4. What does it mean to be "without"?

The Definition of "without" from Dictionary.com:


If you are without your keys, can you start your car? Maybe you "have" them on the counter, but you are "without" them when you go to leave....

I think the RSA should change to read "without having been issued a license that has not been subsequently revoked, suspended, or expired.... etc" Then shrinking it and laminating it would definitely not be a question.

All that said in most circumstances, you probably won't be tried for this law if you have a valid permit on record. But, lets be honest, if you have to show your permit (photocopy or otherwise) you are already in some legal hot water. And if the DA cant get you for whatever it is you did to put you in that hot water in the first place (even if you did nothing wrong... like say loaded open carry in a vehicle) they will look to hit you with some other tangentially related violation.... So why give them the opportunity?

I trimmed mine down and folded it in half then laminated it. I actually folded the seal in so that it cant be seen unless the lamination is removed. Fits in my wallet now. Even though it is folded and not completely visible, I am "WITH" the license. I also carry a shrunken photo copy laminated.

You are a Mass export, aren't you? [rofl] [laugh2]
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
4,702
Likes
1,143
Location
Brookline, NH
The NH license is tissue thin, so my chief of police gave me a tip: keep the original where you can get it if needed, like in the glove box. Probably saves an inquisitive officer the time to call it in.
 
Last edited:

ScottS

NES Member
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
5,702
Likes
5,505
Location
Live Free or Die
Did you read my OP? Ill post the RSA again. Seems it is legally required:

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, nothing that even suggests it's legally required.

Go look up the RSA's for a driver's license:

263:2 Possession of License Required. – Every person driving a motor vehicle shall have his driver's license upon his person or in the vehicle in some easily accessible place...

And hunting/fishing licenses:

214:1 License Required. The licensee shall carry such license on his or her person when so engaged, and the license shall be subject to inspection on demand of any person.

These are examples of what a statute says when carrying a license is...wait for it...required. They don't use tortured, bizzare interpretations of the word "without," and draw ridiculous analogies to car keys.
 

40 caliber

NES Member
Rating - 100%
43   0   0
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
2,397
Likes
1,160
Location
Southern NH - Live free or die !
Is that that folks don't read the previous posts in the thread, or is it that they don't believe what I've written?

See reply number 8 on page 1 of this thread. Specifically:

you say this and then you say you carry a laminated copy just in case. I think not carrying a copy is bad advice regardless of the law. we know a lot of LEOs dont understand all the laws. it is not worth it to me to be detained from going on my way for the sake of carrying a laminated piece of paper.

i know some will say you can sue for being illegally detained. blah blah blah. I am busy enough without adding that hassle to my life.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14
Likes
0
1) My shrunken permit was shrunken using a photocopier, and laminated with the self-adhesive (no heat required) sheet.

2) My actual tissue paper permit was slightly trimmed (all text and emblems are still on it) and heat laminated by a nice lady at staples on rt 101A. Before I laminated it I folded it in half and folded the NH state emblem inside (so 2 folds total). This way it fits in my wallet, is completely visible (half front, half back) less the emblem, and I am always "with" the license that was issued. In the extremely unlikely event they really wanted to see the emblem I could always cut the lamination, and fold it out.

total cost for 1 & 2: $3
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14
Likes
0
Go look up the RSA's for a driver's license:



And hunting/fishing licenses:



These are examples of what a statute says when carrying a license is...wait for it...required. They don't use tortured, bizzare interpretations of the word "without," and draw ridiculous analogies to car keys.

Well Sir, I am not willing to risk my freedom for $2 and a 15 minute trip to staples to have my actual permit laminated in such a way that it fits in my wallet. If you are I hope to God your are not put in a position to have to defend your actions, but if you are put in such a position, I thank you, and I pray for your success. Even you can agree that there is some ambiguity in the law (it is poorly crafted legislation). If you didn't then you wouldn't carry any version of your license, photocopy or otherwise. At the end of the day the question of whether to arrest under this statute lies in the arresting officers interpretation of the law. If you have ever been arrested you will know that it will most likely result in the most expensive and emotionally taxing year of your life.

There are many infringements on our liberty, but this one being so minor I choose not to stake my wealth and other liberties to hold this seemingly inconsequential ground in such a manner.
 

ScottS

NES Member
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
5,702
Likes
5,505
Location
Live Free or Die
Well Sir, I am not willing to risk my freedom for $2 and a 15 minute trip to staples to have my actual permit laminated in such a way that it fits in my wallet. If you are I hope to God your are not put in a position to have to defend your actions, but if you are put in such a position, I thank you, and I pray for your success. Even you can agree that there is some ambiguity in the law (it is poorly crafted legislation). If you didn't then you wouldn't carry any version of your license, photocopy or otherwise. At the end of the day the question of whether to arrest under this statute lies in the arresting officers interpretation of the law. If you have ever been arrested you will know that it will most likely result in the most expensive and emotionally taxing year of your life.

There are many infringements on our liberty, but this one being so minor I choose not to stake my wealth and other liberties to hold this seemingly inconsequential ground in such a manner.

Don't take this the wrong way, but, Dude, don't be such a drama queen.

... I choose not to stake my wealth and other liberties to hold this seemingly inconsequential ground in such a manner...

Really? "Stake you wealth and other liberties?"

I realize you're a recent MA transplant, and eager to "help" us all here with your vast knowledge, but chill out. No one is forcing you to carry your license, or not carry your license, or shrink/laminate your license.

To each his own. Do what you think best, but spare us the tortured, bizarre interpretations of straight-forward legislation.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
1,362
Likes
243
Location
Free state of NH
A Nashua Police officer told me to carry it when I carry a weapon.
So I carry it.
The state constitution will not pull me over and ruin my sunday.
Nor will it be there to stand up for me on the side of the road.
A judge will not pull me over and ruin my sunday.
Nor will he be there to stand up for me on the side of the road.
But a police officer that is ignorant of the law can, & will.
Right or wrong a trip to the Po Po is never fun.
 
Top Bottom