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Should UK Cops Carry Guns?

Zappa

Zappa

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Should UK Cops Carry Guns?

The asshat responses to this story are as convoluted as the story itself.
Once again proving that the once mighty UK continues to slide down that hill to total insanity......
Forget "God Save The Queen". Stick a fork in her, their done.
 
well from what i understand all firearms are pretty much impossible to own in much of europe it's kind of the old maxim "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"

imo police officers should have firearms, of course also imo evryone should have the right to carry a firearm
 
"The policemen were like angels walking around just to be sure you are alright, and at your disposal for any help. If police carry guns they will not be the same guys anymore."

Apparently the police will turn in to maniacal devils if they are armed. God forbid they be given tools to be able to do their job.
 
Masterguns said:
well from what i understand all firearms are pretty much impossible to own in much of europe
Click to expand...

That's not even close to reality. In some countries in Europe, getting a gun is easier than in your state. And in most of them is about the same as MA.
 
hmm, i stand corrected

Millions more hidden guns in Europe than previously revealed - new study


London, July 1 /PRNewswire/ -- - British firearm owners outarmed 3 to 1 by French, Germans

"Contrary to the common assumption that Europeans are virtually unarmed, an estimated 84 million firearms are legally held in the 15 member states of the EU. Of these, 80 per cent - 67 million guns - are in civilian hands," according to new research released today.

"Citizens of most European countries are more heavily armed than they realise, with an average of 17.4 guns per 100 people in the 15 EU countries alone," says Aaron Karp, co-author of the Small Arms Survey report. The UK has 10 firearms per 100 people.

"Many, but not all countries of Europe already have a strong gun culture," according to Karp, whose research for the Small Arms Survey 2003, to be released at the UN next week, shows that:

- Gun laws are tightest in the United Kingdom, the Netherlands and Poland

- In per capita terms, Germans buy almost as many firearms as Americans

- France has more lawfully held handguns than the Czech Republic, Denmark, England and Wales, Poland, Scotland, and Sweden combined

- Across Europe, officials agree that illegal guns greatly outnumber known legal firearms

"Contrary to the common assumption, guns are not rare or traditionally highly regulated in either France or Germany," says Karp. In the 13 months to last October, 47 people died and more than 36 were wounded with privately held guns in mass shootings in France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland.

More information on firearms in Britain, with country comparisons of gun ownership across Europe, is at: http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/Media/

Small Arms Survey 2003: Development Denied, the third annual global analysis of small arms issues (Oxford University Press), will be released in full on 8 July 2003 at the United Nations in New York, during its UN's Biennial Meeting of States on small arms.

The Survey: an independent research project funded by 12 governments, the Small Arms Survey is the principal international source of public information and analysis on small arms issues. It is based at the Graduate Institute of International Studies in Geneva, Switzerland. Visit the Small Arms Survey website at http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/
Click to expand...
 
Masterguns said:
proabably, i just meant the bulk... for example Germany
Click to expand...

Nope, you're still misinformed. Legal gun ownership is possible in about 95% of Western Europe with about the same restrictions as you endure.

How is that "almost impossible", unless you define gun ownership in MA as almost impossible......

About the only thing different between EU and MA is concealed carry.
 
this is particularly interesting...

- France has more lawfully held handguns than the Czech Republic, Denmark, England and Wales, Poland, Scotland, and Sweden combined
Click to expand...

insert French "i surrender joke" <HERE>
 
Well since guns are pretty much illegal in the UK, which naturally applies to criminals too, then I can't see why the police need to be armed.

/sarcasm off
 
There are a lot of armed police in London, take a walk around the Westminster area and there are tons of police walking around with MP5s and MP7s. Also you can look for the police cars with the yellow dots on the windows which indicate it's an armed unit (usually with 3 officers in a BMW 5 series). Picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co19.jpg
 
Jose said:
Nope, you're still misinformed. Legal gun ownership is possible in about 95% of Western Europe with about the same restrictions as you endure.

How is that "almost impossible", unless you define gun ownership in MA as almost impossible......

About the only thing different between EU and MA is concealed carry.
Click to expand...

That is not completely correct and the laws vary by country. However, in almost all cases they are more strict than Massachusetts.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0513/guns/laws.html
 
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Zappa said:
Should UK Cops Carry Guns?

The asshat responses to this story are as convoluted as the story itself.
Once again proving that the once mighty UK continues to slide down that hill to total insanity......
Forget "God Save The Queen". Stick a fork in her, their done.
Click to expand...

I think the UK police should only be able to carry guns if the lawful citizens of that country can carry guns. Similarly, I don't believe police in this country should have access to guns that other civilians don't.
 
Masterguns said:
well from what i understand all firearms are pretty much impossible to own in much of europe it's kind of the old maxim "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"

imo police officers should have firearms, of course also imo evryone should have the right to carry a firearm
Click to expand...

NES has a couple of members who live in Europe. JuergenG lives in Germany, is a good guy and has quite a nice rifle collection. I believe there is also a member from Finland.
 
If I recall correctly most police forces have a number of rapid response vehicles with very well-armed officers inside (i.e. semi-automatic rifles). These can be on the scene of a crime very fast. These officers are typically very well trained in firearm usage, I would go as far to say better than most cops here.

The issue of issuing firearms to other cops is more interesting. Since there isn't the gun-aware culture in the UK I would imagine there would be a significant training problem to bring your average Bobby on the beat up to a suitable standard. There is also a certain community aspect to policing in the UK (especially outside of the big cities), and I would imagine that many cops would be worried that that aspect of policing would come to an end.
 
TomH said:
No, they shouldn't be able to carry firearms.....



Until their general population can also.
Click to expand...

+1 The only problem I see is if/when the criminals have guns and the cops dont.

pipmaster1971 said:
If I recall correctly most police forces have a number of rapid response vehicles with very well-armed officers inside (i.e. semi-automatic rifles). These can be on the scene of a crime very fast. These officers are typically very well trained in firearm usage, I would go as far to say better than most cops here.
Click to expand...

This may or may not work... or it will be sufficient until a few beat cops get shot...
 
Ummm.

Say your a Bobby ( Cop ) in the UK. You have a wife and three kids. One day your walking your beat or driving it and you see something that needs a second look. You investigate with your partner. You hear the BGs say Cops and you finally see them around the corner. You take chase and one or two of them turn around and start firing at you. Your last seconds is feeling the rain water touching your face then fade to black.

1. How can you tell this guys Wife and three kids, that because you weren't armed was because the citizens weren't armed. You lost your Husband and Father because of this legal loophole.

2. Or you can tell this guys Wife and three kids that we got the BGs with an armed response unit. If your Husband had a Firearm his chances fro survival would have been greatly increased. He would have had his weapon drawn and as soon as he saw the gun he probably would have fired.

3. Don't be a cop in the UK without a firearm. Instead be a EMT. Your Wife and three kids will love you for it.
 
Your post got me thinking. My gut feeling is that UK cops, and most european cops, are not in harms way as often as US cops and it appears that is correct. (see below) The why there is probably complicated but I suspect it is because in europe, cops don't interact with the public as often as in the US. Less traffic stops and more on demand calls. As a result, I suspect they tend to show up in greater numbers (ie; 2 or more) when dealing with the public as well as they tend to appear after the crime and not be the catalyst for the crime (traffic stops, drug busts and warrant arrests are apparently the most dangerous activities a cop engages in). All supposition based on my travels to europe (the first thing you notice if you are paying attention is how rare it is to see a cop) there so YMMV.

So that is my guess on why, here is the what and this is based on fact. The death rate for cops per year in the US is ~20 per 100K. For reference, more deadly professions range from truck/construction drivers, fisherman, loggers, construction, etc. Loggers (~120/100K) have about an order magnitude more deadly job than police and police deaths are about an order of magnitude higher than the average (~3/100K). No surprise there it is a dangerous job and falls in the mid range of dangerous employment. I couldn't find stats for the UK but I did find this at the BBC. Based on those numbers, averaging the total number of cops and total number of police deaths across the 30 years the numbers cover, the avg deaths in the UK is 2.3 per year and assuming 130K cops per year in the UK, the death rate per year per 100K is about 2 or an order of magnitude less than in the US. I may be missing something here but it appears being an unarmed bobby in the UK is significantly safer than being an armed cop in the US.

In the end, I suspected UK cops had a lower death rate (because of what I mentioned above), but this is very surprising to say the least. If the BBC numbers are right (which BTW 14 of the 70 deaths occurred in one year recently), the average cop in the UK is less likely to die on the job than the average american worker.


ETA: Here is some red meat for those "gun nuts" [wink] among us.

The Police Federation represents 129,000 officers up to the rank of chief inspector. In 1995, it polled its members on the issue.

Asked whether they wanted to see the police routinely armed, 79 per cent were firmly against. But 83 per cent said there should be an increase in the number of police officers trained in the use of firearms, so they could provide armed back-up when required.

Police opinion has not been tested recently, but there has been concern about the risks now faced by police officers, not least because of the increase in the number of criminals carrying guns.

The Police Federation points to research which shows that while there has been a fall in the number of assaults and injuries suffered by officers, the number of serious injuries is going up.

"We do not want our country to go the same way as America, nor do we wish police officers routinely armed," said federation chairman Jan Berry.

"But if gun crime continues its rapid rise, we will have to think seriously about the best options to protect us all.
Click to expand...

Two things, first you can see the cops themselves are not keen on the idea of carrying sidearms (at least not in 1995). Second, as you can see, since they banned handguns, their death rates have gone up.
 
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Did anyone else flashback on "Mall Cop" reading that story?

May with a little Colonel Crittendon mixed in.

"You there, old boy. Put down that stolen telly. I say, you're under arrest! Hey, stop laughing, you dodger!"
 
Jose said:
Nope, you're still misinformed. Legal gun ownership is possible in about 95% of Western Europe with about the same restrictions as you endure.

How is that "almost impossible", unless you define gun ownership in MA as almost impossible......

About the only thing different between EU and MA is concealed carry.
Click to expand...

I have come to the conclusion, over many posts, that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If you lump the UK into Europe ( which it is), then try making that same comparison to MA. Only difference is concealed carry? What a joke - concealed carry of what? A banana? A full size double barreled shot gun? Even the bloody Olympic pistol team had to go to Switzerland to train as ALL handguns ( as we know them) are banned to the general public.[puke]
 
Once you bring a firearm into a situation, then you just increase the risk of violence. Besides, if you arm cops, then the bad guys would just take the guns away and use them on the cops.

I've no pity for them.
 
"But if gun crime continues its rapid rise, we will have to think seriously about the best options to protect us all.
Click to expand...

How can gun crime continue its "rapid rise" in a country that has banned nearly all guns? Does this mean that criminals didn't turn in their guns like all the law abiding citizens did?
[shocked]

Hmmm......then maybe it's true that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Gee, who woulda' thunk......
 

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