Should ranges/gun stores know the law?

[Atlantis]

I'm a little flustered. I was practicing with my carry gun tonight at my range, which is also a store, and while talking to an employee I mentioned that I owned an HK USP. He promptly stated something along the lines of "watch out, that's not mass compliant, you should be careful". We spent the next 20 minutes or so going over this topic. I tried politely to explain that its all about what the dealer can and can not do, and that there is nothing about simple possession that makes it illegal. The majority of the time my mentality was "I want this fellow gun enthusiast to know they have the right to possess damn near anything they want, because freedom" but as the conversation continued, and they become more dismissive and borderline hostile, it started to be more like "As an employee of this store/range, you are seen by others as an authority on this subject, you shouldn't be giving people legal advice that is flat out incorrect"

Its not as if I can point to a law that expressly allows it. And saying "show me the law that says I can't" isn't really going to help educate the person I am debating. I left pretty flustered as I was borderline asked to leave and "take your argument somewhere else".

Am I missing something? Is it really a grey area? Or is this just par for the course and no one outside of the NES world knows about the reality of MA legislature?

 

[Nick Fury]

Am I missing something?

Yes. The name of this store...

 

[Atlantis]

Yes. The name of this store...

Most of the employees I've encountered at this store/range have been really helpful, polite, and knowedgeable. I like the place. Before I got lighting them up I want to make sure

A) I'm not actually wrong

B) It's clear this is one individual and one conversation, not flaming the whole store and all their staff

 

[W.E.C]

Keep the ear pro on, and do your thing....

 

[Igotid]

If I was in any business, especially a business as highly regulated as guns in MA, I’d like to be proficient in the laws surrounding it. Yes, they should.

What store was it?

 

[citoriguy]

Yes. The name of this store...

And a description of the mouth breather that you were speaking with.

 

[chris_1001]

Can’t take the time now to go into how many times I have had to discuss this.

It’s a dealer sales regulation and not an ownership regulation.

Hell, my range rents a ton of non compliant gun’s and you get a post ban mag with it.

Tell him to go get you a large fry, that’s where he should work.

 

[Shark_Cage]

Cops and gun stores are the last ones to ask about regs

 

[Atlantis]

Alright, I glad I'm not on the wrong side of this. But I've cooled down a bit and realized that "outing" the guy/store is not going to solve anything. I'm going to PM their account on here and give them/the owner the benefit of the doubt. Like I said to the guy tonight, 80% of the reason I took the time to argue with him is because WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE. If I get pushback from the range/owner I'll have a different opinion, but for now I don't think this one employee's actions warrant "outing" the entire establishment.

 

[Queen Bee]

Hmm if i had to guess..

Bobs

AFS

MFS being my pick for this story...

 

[Buck F]

Hmm if i had to guess..

Bobs

AFS

MFS being my pick for this story...

My vote goes to AFS, can’t believe some of the crap I have heard from some of the staff there. Although I’m pretty sure they don’t have an account on NES so maybe it’s not them.

 

[chris_1001]

Hmm if i had to guess..

Bobs

AFS

MFS being my pick for this story...

MFS is cool. No issues there. You can rent a Glock or something else similar all day everyday.

 

[Uzi2]

I'm a little flustered. I was practicing with my carry gun tonight at my range, which is also a store, and while talking to an employee I mentioned that I owned an HK USP. He promptly stated something along the lines of "watch out, that's not mass compliant, you should be careful". We spent the next 20 minutes or so going over this topic. I tried politely to explain that its all about what the dealer can and can not do, and that there is nothing about simple possession that makes it illegal. The majority of the time my mentality was "I want this fellow gun enthusiast to know they have the right to possess damn near anything they want, because freedom" but as the conversation continued, and they become more dismissive and borderline hostile, it started to be more like "As an employee of this store/range, you are seen by others as an authority on this subject, you shouldn't be giving people legal advice that is flat out incorrect"

Its not as if I can point to a law that expressly allows it. And saying "show me the law that says I can't" isn't really going to help educate the person I am debating. I left pretty flustered as I was borderline asked to leave and "take your argument somewhere else".

Am I missing something? Is it really a grey area? Or is this just par for the course and no one outside of the NES world knows about the reality of MA legislature?

You'll never find a law that expressly "allows" anything, thats not how it works.
Laws don't "allow" things or actions, they PROHIBIT things or actions or REQUIRE actions. So if your debate opponent cannot come up with the law that specifically prohibits that gun then it is legal to possess.....period.

 

[chris_1001]

My vote goes to AFS, can’t believe some of the crap I have heard from some of the staff there. Although I’m pretty sure they don’t have an account on NES so maybe it’s not them.

Hate shooting at AFS. Only go to quick sight a rifle when I’m desperate. Otherwise I’ll go to MFS.

 

[Atlantis]

No need to play the guessing game, its one employee, one conversation. Just wanted to sanity check myself.

AFS has its issues but they are "OK". And no it was not MFS.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The problem with MA law is that it's so open to interpretation. I can't tell you the number of times I've had to explain to customers that putting a Punisher skull or a light trigger on your gun could totally screw you if you ever end up in court, the prosecutor will make mince meat out of you. Also Glocks are illegal. As are threaded barrels on pistols. And if you ever come in please make sure to ask me my opinion on stoppin powah.

 

[TomMontana]

"As an employee of this store/range, you are seen by others as an authority on this subject

Bwahahahahaha. Arguing with a guy at a gun store is a waste of time. God bless you for trying though.

 

[Atlantis]

The problem with MA law is that it's so open to interpretation. I can't tell you the number of times I've had to explain to customers that putting a Punisher skull or a light trigger on your gun could totally screw you if you ever end up in court, the prosecutor will make mince meat out of you. Also Glocks are illegal. As are threaded barrels on pistols. And if you ever come in please make sure to ask me my opinion on stoppin powah.

I see what you did there. I think what got me was that it was un-solicited legal advice. I was picking out a rental to try and said "nah, id prefer the 1911 to the HK, I already have one of those". I didn't go out of my way to have the conversation, other than replying "no, I think you have that wrong"

 

[Len-2A Training]

Most of the employees I've encountered at this store/range have been really helpful, polite, and knowedgeable. I like the place. Before I got lighting them up I want to make sure

A) I'm not actually wrong

B) It's clear this is one individual and one conversation, not flaming the whole store and all their staff

A) You are 100% correct.
B) Unknown - many stores/employees are clueless on Mass gun laws. When I created my seminar I had hopes that some would make the effortt to take it and learn if I taught it on a Sunday when most shops are closed. To date only one shop had me teach their staff and that was Vinny Cedrone, Shawsheen Firearms in Billerica.

If I was in any business, especially a business as highly regulated as guns in MA, I’d like to be proficient in the laws surrounding it. Yes, they should.

What store was it?

Agreed and also agree on outing the store and employee.

Cops and gun stores are the last ones to ask about regs

Amen!

You'll never find a law that expressly "allows" anything, thats not how it works.
Laws don't "allow" things or actions, they PROHIBIT things or actions or REQUIRE actions. So if your debate opponent cannot come up with the law that specifically prohibits that gun then it is legal to possess.....period.

That's the way it should be!

 

[Picton]

Just keep shooting. Know the law and follow it as your conscience and temperament dictate.

Some gunstore employee's ignorance isn't your problem. He had the same opportunity you do to educate himself, and chose not to. Why you'd lose any sleep or start a thread about it is beyond me.

"But," you'll say, "if I don't debate him, I can't convince him. And if I can't convince him, he'll dispense wrong advice to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that comes through here!"

No. It's not your job. You're not his teacher, you're not there to save Tom, Dick, or Harry, and those three yahoos have the same resources you do to get educated. Not your problem.

Just keep shooting.

 

[Enzo]

Hmm if i had to guess..

Bobs

AFS

MFS being my pick for this story...

Let’s not forget, for just a moment, the Gun Parlor. When I went their before they started working for the AG, I heard some stupid stuff.

 

[EddyMunster]

Lesson number 1, 99.9% of people that chose to work in a gun store are 100% full of sh!t

 

[EddyMunster]

Let’s not forget, for just a moment, the Gun Parlor. When I went their before they started working for the AG, I heard some stupid stuff.

Are you a Libtard moonbat? Because that statement is disingenuous at best, or a outright slanderous lie at worst. The Gun Parlor has never worked for the AG. They made a mistake and I agree they were 100% wrong in thinking they could reason with unreasonable people.

 

[allen-1]

Unfortunately, a lot of people working in gun stores aren't as knowledgeable about guns as we'd like them to be either. When I first started shooting and buying guns I got a lot of really bad advice from guys working in gun stores.

Some of it just as bad as:
"I said, 'Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house,'" Biden said.

"You don't need an AR-15—it's harder to aim," he added, "it's harder to use, and in fact you don't need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun! Buy a shotgun!"

 

[Enzo]

Are you a Libtard moonbat? Because that statement is disingenuous at best, or a outright slanderous lie at worst. The Gun Parlor has never worked for the AG. They made a mistake and I agree they were 100% wrong in thinking they could reason with unreasonable people.

Ah, no I’m not and ok, allegedly working for the AG......Justin?

 

[amm5061]

USPs are on the list in both 9mm and .40.... Why would they not be mass compliant? Has this asshat ever tried to pull the double action shot on one of those? Or was this specifically directed at the LEM version with no safety?

Honestly, never listen to anything the people behind the counter at gun stores say, because they're almost always wrong. If they'll sell you what you want, then just buy it and move on with life.

Also can't be MFS, they sell USPs.

 

[not new guy]

If you do talk to someone in charge at the mystery shop you should suggest that the employee joins NES and gets a free education on the highly regulated industry he’s working and dishing out legal advice in.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Normally a gun store owner knows the law as part of his job. Preferably, the owner should work with a lawyer just to make sure all the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted.

However, gun store counter employees are not legal scholars and are not final arbiters of the law and shouldn't be taken seriously if you can find credible information to the contrary, regardless of the state. Their job is to sell guns and whatever else is on the shelves.

 

[not new guy]

They have no business dishing out bad legal advice beyond whatever directly applies to the transactions they’re a part of, or hope to be a part of. Right or wrong, they’re often seen as experts on the topic of gun laws, as evidenced by a million threads on here from new shooters who they’ve confused. At best they look like fools/liars and they make their store look shitty. At worst their advice gets somebody in real legal trouble.

I have yet to hear a story about a gun store employee giving bad advice under any sort of “I’m not really sure” or “I’m no expert” qualifier. It always seems to be them believing it 100% and getting offended when challenged.

 

[swatgig]

Mass gun laws are completely screwed up. A gun dealer know he (or she) can't sell particular items, but may not know exactly what chapter and section prohibit it. All they know is that they can't sell them "cuz it's against the law". It really doesn't matter if it's illegal to sell and/or possess, or simply illegal for them to sell.

The police aren't much better.