Shotgun ownership for 17 year old with FID

[HarryPottar]

I tried searching for this topic but couldn't find what I was looking for.

my son turns 17 in a couple of weeks and wants a Mossberg 500 for his birthday.

I know he can not purchase guns or ammo until his 18, however can I purchase said shotgun from dealer with my LTC then transfer into his name. It will be 5 shots and meet FID requirements.

Thanks
harry

 

[Len-2A Training]

He certainly can keep it (possess), shoot it where and when he wants.

It is not clear to me whether or not he can officially "own" it (eFA-10) before he's 18. I just don't know. I've never read anything in MGLs that clarifies this.

 

[HarryPottar]

Thanks Len, thoughts are to have a gun registered in his name so when he applies for his LTC at 21 he can demonstrate a history of responsible gun ownership, maybe we're over thinking this.

I will purchase the gun and attempt the transfer assuming it will just reject it if it does not like the age. Either way the gun will be stored in the same safe, I think it just wants something he can call his own.

thanks

harry

 

[browncoat]

Thanks Len, thoughts are to have a gun registered in his name so when he applies for his LTC at 21 he can demonstrate a history of responsible gun ownership, maybe we're over thinking this.

I will purchase the gun and attempt the transfer assuming it will just reject it if it does not like the age. Either way the gun will be stored in the same safe, I think it just wants something he can call his own.

thanks

harry

The system doesn't necessarily reject illegal transfers. For example, if you are over your 4 sales on eFA-10 limit, it will not stop you from doing a transfer. I have no idea as to the legality of the transfer in this case, I just wanted to make the point that it could be illegal and it could still let you do it. Then there is a record of the (possibly illegal) transfer in their database just waiting for them to search for it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks Len, thoughts are to have a gun registered in his name so when he applies for his LTC at 21 he can demonstrate a history of responsible gun ownership, maybe we're over thinking this.

I will purchase the gun and attempt the transfer assuming it will just reject it if it does not like the age. Either way the gun will be stored in the same safe, I think it just wants something he can call his own.

thanks

harry

I just left VM for FRB's legal Counsel. It's an interesting question and perhaps we'll get an answer. As stated above, I wouldn't rely on the software stopping a transaction due to legality (or lack of it) regarding age of the buyer.

 

[robjax]

Thanks Len, thoughts are to have a gun registered in his name so when he applies for his LTC at 21 he can demonstrate a history of responsible gun ownership, maybe we're over thinking this.

I will purchase the gun and attempt the transfer assuming it will just reject it if it does not like the age. Either way the gun will be stored in the same safe, I think it just wants something he can call his own.

thanks

harry

I know assumption is the mother of all eff-ups, but why stir the pot? Can he legally acquire an FID card at 17 years old without your signature? Can he buy the shotgun himself? If the answer is "NO" to any of these questions then why even attempt it? I'm not saying to go running scared. But what I am saying is that if it is in fact illegal and you do the transfer then you have an illegal firearm activity linked directly to you.

Any chief is just looking for a reason to disqualify you from having and keeping your license. Why give them one. It's 12 months. Tell him the gun is his. Who cares who has their name on the paper?

Nobody here can quote the exact law. But if a store/FFL can't legally sell him one why would you think you can?

Wait the 12 months. Put the gun in his name when he's 18. He'll have owned it for three years before he can apply for his LTC. That should be good enough...not that anyone has asked me ever if I owned guns previously on my LTC application.

If it were me I would just tell him to wait as you are risking suitability and potentially a "straw" purchase under the states obscure interpretations of the gun laws if it is in fact illegal for you to effect that transfer.

 

[HarryPottar]

@robjax.

Thanks for the feed back and I understand what you're saying, his always with me at the range he doesn't drive yet so I transport him around, there no immediate need but more a want.

At this point his question is why he bothered with an FID (rhetorical), he can not buy ammo or firearm, he can legally process a shotgun but can he "own" one?.

I'm not going to sell him anything, I'm going to buy the shotgun from the dealer, I intend to gift him the shotgun for his birthday, straw purchase does not apply to gifts or family members i.e you can buy your wife a fire arm legally, hence the post is it legal to do so for a 17 year old.

If it's not legal to do so it's not a big issue or deal breaker but if we can why not


Thanks Len for making the call interesting to know the legality.

thanks
harry

 

[Len-2A Training]

AFAIK the "exemption" in BATFE Regs for gifting a gun not being a straw purchase is that the person is legal to acquire it. That seems to be the question here, if they can't buy from a dealer and if MA law prohibits them from acquiring (buy/receive as gift/etc) due to <18, it could be that BATFE could go after you as a "straw purchase". Don't really know and that is why I'm asking the question for you.

 

[Glockster30]

First things first, I suspect that you know that your son can obtain a FID card if he is between the age of 15 and less than 18 under MGL C. 140, Section 129B, as follows:

(v) is at the time of the application more than 14 but less than 18 years of age, unless the applicant submits with the application a certificate of a parent or guardian granting the applicant permission to apply for a card;

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...on129B&usg=AFQjCNFGvzUzi2-cID4QNB0EVxjlEphlJA

However, although it still appears to be a grey area with regard to having a shotgun in his name, C. 140, Section 130 states the following:

Section 130. Whoever sells or furnishes a rifle, shotgun or ammunition to any alien 18 years of age or older who does not hold a permit card issued to that alien pursuant to section 131H or, except as provided in this section or section 131E, whoever sells or furnishes any alien or any person under 18 years of age a rifle, shotgun, machine gun or ammunition, or whoever sells or furnishes to any person under 21 years of age a firearm or large capacity rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor shall have the license to sell firearms, rifles, shotguns, machine guns or ammunition revoked and shall not be entitled to apply for such license for 10 years from the date of such revocation and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000, or by imprisonment in a state prison for not more than 10 years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ion130&usg=AFQjCNHf6e3rEK7saoPa6Ljj8Mts6_Ls_g

However, this section just states "any person" under the age of 18 for a rifle or shotgun, but is grey with regard to whether this applies to a minor with a FID card.

Unfortunately, since this is a very grey area, I would wait until Len can find out more information for you.

 

[HarryPottar]

AFAIK the "exemption" in BATFE Regs for gifting a gun not being a straw purchase is that the person is legal to acquire it. That seems to be the question here, if they can't buy from a dealer and if MA law prohibits them from acquiring (buy/receive as gift/etc) due to <18, it could be that BATFE could go after you as a "straw purchase". Don't really know and that is why I'm asking the question for you.

Thanks Len, won't make a move until we're certain we're not going to end up in MA jail.

harry

 

[robjax]

At this point his question is why he bothered with an FID (rhetorical), he can not buy ammo or firearm, he can legally process a shotgun but can he "own" one?.

Good question. I do not know the correct answer. Again just and assumption...but I believe you need and FID to get a hunting license and possess a gun during a hunt. Not totally sure though.

I tried looking for a good answer and all I can find is a minor may posses a gun under certain circumstances....we all knew that already. Could not find anything about owning it or transferring it to a minor.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks Len, won't make a move until we're certain we're not going to end up in MA jail.

harry

One thing I can unequivocally tell you is legal is for you to buy it, allow him to use it whenever he wants and then transfer it to him once he turns 18.

I realize that he "wants" it in his name, but that isn't required for him to possess it (even without your presence) during this "gray" period.

- - - Updated - - -

Good question. I do not know the correct answer. Again just and assumption...but I believe you need and FID to get a hunting license and possess a gun during a hunt. Not totally sure though.

I tried looking for a good answer and all I can find is a minor may posses a gun under certain circumstances....we all knew that already. Could not find anything about owning it or transferring it to a minor.

Without the FID, a person with LTC/FID MUST be present and directly "supervise" the minor (or anyone else for that matter). With the FID, he can take any FID-compliant gun and go off shooting on his own (by foot or car) and he's perfectly legal.

 

[robjax]

Without the FID, a person with LTC/FID MUST be present and directly "supervise" the minor (or anyone else for that matter). With the FID, he can take any FID-compliant gun and go off shooting on his own (by foot or car) and he's perfectly legal.

I know without the FID they would not be legal to possess. so what you are saying is there are no restrictions on possessing an FID compliant gun. Home alone..intruder comes in...16 year old grabs the old side by side and dispatches the intruder...no issue for unlawful possession.

As to hunting though...do you need the FID for a hunting license? I assume so. Then the 16 year old can wander out from under the watchful eye of over-aged guardian. (no offense OP...lol)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Anyone needs a Hunter Ed Cert to get a hunting license, regardless of age. MA Residents do need to produce an FID or LTC and the Hunter Ed Cert to get their first hunting license.

The entire purpose of the FID is that the person is legal to possess any FID compliant long guns at any time, anywhere as long as the location and what they are doing isn't prohibited for anyone regardless of age.

 

[robjax]

So I happened on this....

Now this is supposedly federal law. Se the box totally in bold....

State laws as we know can be more restrictive. Couldn't find anything anywhere about Mass beyond possession. Nothing about transfers or ownership under the age of 18...isn't just like Mass to leave you guessing...

http://smartgunlaws.org/minimum-age-to-purchase-possess-firearms-policy-summary\

Federal law in this area distinguishes between long guns (rifles and shotguns) and handguns, and between gun possession and gun sales. Federal law also distinguishes between licensed and unlicensed gun sellers.
Minimum Age for Gun Sales and Transfers:

Under federal law –	Handguns	Long Guns (Rifles and Shotguns)
Licensed firearms dealers	Dealers may not sell or deliver a handgun or ammunition for a handgun to any person the dealer has reasonable cause to believe is under age 21.8	Dealers may not sell or deliver a long gun, or ammunition for a long gun, to any person the dealer has reasonable cause to believe is under age 18.9
Unlicensed persons	Unlicensed persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor has reasonable cause to believe is under age 18, with certain exceptions*.10	Unlicensed persons may sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer a long gun or long gun ammunition to a person of any age.

 

[Glockster30]

Anyone needs a Hunter Ed Cert to get a hunting license, regardless of age. MA Residents do need to produce an FID or LTC and the Hunter Ed Cert to get their first hunting license.

The entire purpose of the FID is that the person is legal to possess any FID compliant long guns at any time, anywhere as long as the location and what they are doing isn't prohibited for anyone regardless of age.

Len, as usual with our screwed up laws in MA, I do not think that a person between the age of 15 and 18 requires a Hunter Ed Cert, as there appears to be an either or clause, as follows:

1) Obtain a Hunter Ed certification, OR, a signed letter for consent from the minor's parent, legal guardian, etc. that they will be accompanied by an adult at all times while hunting under the adult's hunter certification:

[h=3]Does everyone have to have a basic hunter education certificate in order to obtain a license?[/h]

No. Adults who possess any prior year's hunting or sporting license (combination hunting and fishing license) from any state or province are exempt from taking and passing a hunter education course.​

​

Each year all minors between 15-17 years of age who wish to purchase a hunting license must produce the following documentation:​

​

• A basic hunter education course certificate and a letter of consent allowing the minor to hunt from his or her parent or guardian OR
• A letter signed by the minor's parent or guardian affirming that the minor will be accompanied at all times by a licensed adult while hunting AND a letter of consent allowing the minor to hunt from his or her parent or guardian.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjABahUKEwiRt4uys5zIAhUGGj4KHYMIApo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mass.gov%2Feea%2Fagencies%2Fdfg%2Fdfw%2Flaws-regulations%2Fhunting-license-purchase-requirements.html&usg=AFQjCNEykQPRePYcES-Cwc8TS9SMH64J-g

 

[MisterHappy]

OK:

To get a hunting license for the first time, you need to have a Hunter Ed cert.

To hunt with another, "On their license", you have to share one gun, and one bag limit.

You do not need an FID for a hunting licesne, as you do not need an FID for Primitive (black powder) or archery (though you do need and FID to purchase powder, cap and ball, you do not need it to possess same).

The advantage of a <18 person having an FID is that they can possess an FID compliant long gun; this means that they can drive to the range, or hunting, or be driven to the range or hunting by an person with no FID/LTC, and to possess ammo. If they're in a car with loose ammo (it happens) they're OK.

I'm waiting for the ownership question (my understanding is "no", but a clarification will be welcome)

There is no requirement for an FID or LTC applicant to have a history of "responsible ownership". Hell, my younger son was an NRA Apprentice Instructor for 2 years before his FID application, but that was not relevant.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I do not think I will get any response from FRB's Counsel, it's been 2 days without a return call. I sent her an Email with a question a year ago and never heard back either. So this morning I left VM for Michaela, she has been very good at getting back to me so I do expect to hear from her on this, it may be a few days, but I expect an answer and will post when I do get it.

 

[HarryPottar]

Thanks Len for the follow up, going to buy the shotgun this weekend and leave it on my LTC until we know for sure it's legal.

Thanks

harry

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not legal! Can possess but NOT OWN.

Just received the return call from FRB's Legal Counsel, it's found here:

C. 140 § 131E Purchase by Residents of Firearms, Rifles, and Shotguns
Any resident of the commonwealth may purchase firearms, rifles, and shotguns from any dealer licensed under section one hundred and twenty-two, or from such person as shall be qualified under section one hundred and twenty-eight A, or ammunition from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two B, subject to the following conditions:
(a) rifles, shotguns and feeding devices therefor may be so purchased only upon presentment of:
(i) a valid firearms identification card issued under section 129B; or
(ii) a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms issued under section 131; or
(iii) valid proof of exempt status under section 129C; provided, however, that large capacity rifles and shotguns and large capacity feeding devices therefor may be so purchased only upon presentment of a Class A or Class B license to carry issued under section 131; and provided further, that no rifle or shotgun or ammunition or ammunition feeding device therefor shall be sold to any person less than 18 years of age; and provided further, that no large capacity rifle or shotgun or large capacity feeding device therefor shall be sold to any person less than 21 years of age;

This includes obtaining (transfer) from a LTC/FID holder.

 

[atilla]

you guys blew this all way out of proportion.

buy the gun, keep it with your guns.

it's "his" gun. when he moves out he can just take the gun with him.

not complicated.

 

[HarryPottar]

Thank you Len for putting in the all the effort on this.

I will keep it in my name until it turns 18.

He can still enjoy it with his FID though.

Thanks

Harry

 

[atilla]

seriously dude don't even worry about "putting it in his name" when he's old enough. just give it to him. here son, this is your gun now.

don't get too wrapped up in the silliness of MA.

 

[HarryPottar]

It was more overthinking the LTC when he turns 21.

When he sits in front of the local PD licensing officer at 21 in his interview, I wanted him to demonstrate that he had been a responsible gun owner for some time, rather then just asking for an LTC-A just turning 21 and green.

plus for him I wanted to install sense of ownership, pride and responsibility, keep it clean and safe etc.

thanks for everyone input

harry

 

[MisterHappy]

my kids divide up my stuff, for when I'm dead, while I'm sitting in the room.

"Ownership" is a continuum.

 

[edmxz2002]

my kids divide up my stuff, for when I'm dead, while I'm sitting in the room.

"Ownership" is a continuum.

So my kids aren't the only ones who do that?

 

[Beretta92FS]

.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Nowhere on an FA/e-FA-10 form does it ask if money is transferred! Keep thinking that a gift or FTF doesn't mean that the person has to meet that law and let us know how it works out for you. MGL doesn't care about money wrt gun laws.

IANAL and Beretta92FS claims not to be either, but my info was researched by a lawyer who also happens to be more on our side than people here might think. I'll believe her in this case.

 

[Beretta92FS]

.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Just did an experiment on the Massachusetts Gun Transaction Portal web site for eFA-10 transfers by validating my 16 year old sons FID. Upon validating his license in the MIRCS transfer system, it generates a PDF for me which specifically says:

License type: Firearms Identification Card
License Status: Active
Allowed Weapon Type(s): Rifle, Shotgun
Large Capacity: No
​

So the MIRCS systems tells me that a Rifle and Shotgun is Allowed for him as a 16 year old. Since the MIRCS gun transfer portal specifically generates a document for me that says it's allowed, then I cannot see how it can be illegal.

You really expect the portal to reflect ONLY what is legal to do? Good luck with that!

You can also do 20 FTF transactions using the portal so I guess the law that states MAX 4/calendar year isn't valid either!!