Shot guns

[watchman]

I don't know but if I wanted to defend my castle a castle shotgun would be the only way to do so properly. I would suggest a Purdey to do it right how would your neighbors feel if you only used a Mossy to defend a castle.
You'd be bringing down the neighborhood think of the property values such careless thoughts.

 

[Tinkermatic]

Since this is inevitably going to spark the birdshot in a home defense shotgun debate where one side says "birdshot is for birds" and the other side says it's a viable home defense solution at close range......I'll just leave this here.

Spoiler alert......high brass birdshot is devastating at close range and penetrates drywall and home building material much less than buckshot or slug.



View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc

Counterpoint. Woman takes a full load of bird shot point blank and just walks away.



Edit- This
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_KuFzjOGA

is the video I wanted to link to. There are of course unknown specifics but that lady takes a blast and just walks it off. Rifle, hollow points or buckshot/slug. I still wouldn't want bird shot coming my way, but I don't know that it's the answer. Turkey loads? Those buggers are hot.

 

[whacko]

Counterpoint. Woman takes a full load of bird shot point blank and just walks away.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc9ZeHIGphk

There's something wrong with that video......what was he using for a load? If that were number 4 or 5 high brass birdshot at that distance that girl would have been in trouble. I'd say that was 5 to 7 yards.......even a low brass target load at that distance she would not be casually walking away.

Did you watch Paul Harrels video?

 

[Tinkermatic]

There's something wrong with that video......what was he using for a load? If that were number 4 or 5 high brass birdshot at that distance that girl would have been in trouble. I'd say that was 5 to 7 yards.......even a low brass target load at that distance she would not be casually walking away.

Did you watch Paul Harrels video?

I did, I saw his video a while ago. I could listen to him for hours, totally different style of gun channel and I really appreciate it. I did edit my post to state that there are unknowns, you are correct. She's a bigger girl wearing a sweater, backpack, shirt and bra, presumably. It staggers her but doesn't put her down. We don't know the gauge of that double barrel either. There are indeed holes in the story and as I said, I still wouldn't want it coming my way. I'm glad she was alright as well. Still not sold on bird shot though. I'm in the market for my first shotgun as well and I thankfully don't have to worry about over penetration, I already have 8 pellet buck and rifled slugs to break my shoulder in with.

 

[whacko]

I did, I saw his video a while ago. I could listen to him for hours, totally different style of gun channel and I really appreciate it. I did edit my post to state that there are unknowns, you are correct. She's a bigger girl wearing a sweater, backpack, shirt and bra, presumably. We don't know the gauge of that double barrel either. There are indeed holes in the story and as I said, I still wouldn't want it coming my way. Still not sold on bird shot though. I'm in the market for my first shotgun as well and I thankfully don't have to worry about over penetration, I already have 8 pellet buck and rifled slugs to break my shoulder in with.

I watched it on a bigger screen and it looked to me like the gun was pointed off the the side quite a bit and he hit her with the fringe.

I use high brass game loads for alot of hunting applications. When I hunt rabbit or snowshoe hare I make sure the game is at least 20 yards away before pulling the trigger. My bil vaporized his first snow shoe hare a couple years ago. He shot it at about 10 yards and blew it in half.

High brass loads under 10 yards have a shit load of power.

 

[Tinkermatic]

I watched it on a bigger screen and it looked to me like the gun was pointed off the the side quite a bit and he hit her with the fringe.

I use high brass game loads for alot of hunting applications. When I hunt rabbit or snowshoe hare I make sure the game is at least 20 yards away before pulling the trigger. My bil vaporized his first snow shoe hare a couple years ago. He shot it at about 10 yards and blew it in half.

High brass loads under 10 yards have a shit load of power.

Well, shit.

First hand experience certainly speaks louder than YouTube. I suppose a broad statement about bird shot doesn't take into account the wide variety of loads that fall into that category. The only experience I have with shotguns was a range trip at MFS and a buddy who told me we were shooting "turkey loads" whatever that means. They kicked like a damn mule is all I know and left me with a significant bruise.

 

[whacko]

Well, shit.

First hand experience certainly speaks louder than YouTube. I suppose a broad statement about bird shot doesn't take into account the wide variety of loads that fall into that category. The only experience I have with shotguns was a range trip at MFS and a buddy who told me we were shooting "turkey loads" whatever that means. They kicked like a damn mule is all I know and left me with a significant bruise.

Paul Harrell actually just did a video on Turkey loads for home defense. Turkey loads are heavy payloads of shot.....when hunting Turkey the ideal shot placement is the head. That's a small target so requires a dense pattern so more pellets. To put it in perspective 12 gauge birdshot loads come in 3 basic categories

Target and light game loads also called low brass which are 1 or 1 1/8 ounce of shot

High brass loads that are generally 1 1/4 ounce of shot

Magnum or "Turkey" loads which are 3 inch or 3 1/2 inch shells which go all the way up to 2 ounces of payload.

Waterfoul loads are also 3 inch or 3 1/2 inch but can't be compared in payload weigh to the other 3 because the use steel, tungsten, or bismuth shot which is different density.

 

[greencobra]

Why a pump over a semi auto 12 gauge for home defense.

i didn't read all the posts so if this was mentioned.....

nothing will scare the shit & piss out of a home invader more than the sound of a pump shotgun racking in a round. from the perspective of being behind the trigger, it's a sweet sound. being in front of the muzzle, i would imagine more terrifying than sweet.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

I cant believe there are still people that think birdshot is the best shotgun load to use for self defense lol.

If im breaking into a neckbeard's mom's basement and i hear a pump action shotgun get racked im going to laugh, and assume he's got literally no clue what hes doing and has high brass birdshot in his gun. Ill simply deploy my sheetrock birdshot shield, wait for him to miss me 7 times, then pop his grape with my handgun and proceed to make off with his vintage action figure and hustler magazine collection as i had originally intended.

ETA: over penetration isnt a big deal if you hit your target, this is accomplished through training, try it sometime instead of watching dudes on youtube shoot plastic soda bottles and sweatshirts stuffed with wieners.

 

[whacko]

I cant believe there are still people that think birdshot is the best shotgun load to use for self defense lol.

If im breaking into a neckbeard's mom's basement and i hear a pump action shotgun get racked im going to laugh, and assume he's got literally no clue what hes doing and has high brass birdshot in his gun. Ill simply deploy my sheetrock birdshot shield, wait for him to miss me 7 times, then pop his grape with my handgun and proceed to make off with his vintage action figure and hustler magazine collection as i had originally intended.

ETA: over penetration isnt a big deal if you hit your target, this is accomplished through training, try it sometime instead of watching dudes on youtube shoot plastic soda bottles and sweatshirts stuffed with wieners.

So many assumptions with so little comprehension.

1. I never said it was the best option. However, it is not a bad option.
2. I never said racking a shotgun is a good deterant.....someone else did. I'd never rack a shotgun it would already be loaded.
3. Over penetration is a consideration for people that live in close quarters like apartments or town homes
4. Training......yeah.....training IS key to increasing the likelyhood of stopping a threat fast and hitting your target. However, under stress there is no GUARaNTEE that you'll hit your intended target.
5. You assume I have a shotgun for HD and don't train. I have a 45acp m and p for HD and I definitely know how to get it and put it to use quickly. Why the assumption that I don't train and watch vids? I'm at the club 2 to 3 times a week.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

So many assumptions with so little comprehension.

1. I never said it was the best option. However, it is not a bad option.
2. I never said racking a shotgun is a good deterant.....someone else did. I'd never rack a shotgun it would already be loaded.
3. Over penetration is a consideration for people that live in close quarters like apartments or town homes
4. Training......yeah.....training IS key to increasing the likelyhood of stopping a threat fast and hitting your target. However, under stress there is no GUARaNTEE that you'll hit your intended target.
5. You assume I have a shotgun for HD and don't train. I have a 45acp m and p for HD and I definitely know how to get it and put it to use quickly. Why the assumption that I don't train and watch vids? I'm at the club 2 to 3 times a week.

I wasnt strictly talking about you.

The ballistics testing in that video is laughable at best.

There is so much derp out there when it comes to shotguns, it just wont go away.

Im pretty sure that current trend if over penetration is a concern is to use an 556 carbine with home defense specific ammo.

 

[whacko]

I wasnt strictly talking about you.

The ballistics testing in that video is laughable at best.

There is so much derp out there when it comes to shotguns, it just wont go away.

Im pretty sure that current trend if over penetration is a concern is to use an 556 carbine with home defense specific ammo.

I'm actually ok with how he does his testing. It is not perfect but it provides a good idea of performance.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

I'm actually ok with how he does his testing. It is not perfect but it provides a good idea of performance.

The human body is like 60% water, skin, etc. putting a tshirt over some ribs you got at BJs is some bullshit. The FBI has standards for ballistics testing for a reason, if this dude wanted to make a compelling argument he would have stuck to that standard not just made up some shit.

 

[nstassel]

All you need is a double barrel shotgun. Just ask Creepy Joe


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHZ7zXLvOkY

 

[McReef]

over penetration isnt a big deal if you hit your target, this is accomplished through training

Words of wisdom.

You can also cross reliability and other such for the most part off your list of worries. With training you will know what to expect, and how to deal with it, without missing a beat.

Fear the man with the $5 gun, if he’s put 5000 rounds through it, you’re a dead man.

 

[DeadEyeDan]

Don’t play around go semi in 10 gauge and use 3.5 inch magnums...00 Buck shot would mean 18 .30 caliber ball flying down range every time you pull the trigger... I think. ;P

 

[whacko]

The human body is like 60% water, skin, etc. putting a tshirt over some ribs you got at BJs is some bullshit. The FBI has standards for ballistics testing for a reason, if this dude wanted to make a compelling argument he would have stuck to that standard not just made up some shit.

Ok so you only trust calibrated ballistics gel.

This video shows decent penetration of #4 high brass into calibrated gel at 10 feet. 10 to 15 feet is what I'd call max range for use of high brass birdshot.....plenty of people live in homes where that's the max range they'd be preparing for. The video also states buckshot is a better option if your not concerned about over penetration.....but we knew that from the start.

I've never proposed high brass birdshot as the BEST option.......but in specific home layouts it is a viable option. High brass 1 1/4 ounce loads pack high energy before the payload spreads out which is 5 to 7 yards. Past 5 to 7 yards the single projectiles in a wider pattern have less energy to penetrate multiple internal and external walls. That's the solid concept in my opinion.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqZaVQW7O4&t=12s

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Ok so you only trust calibrated ballistics gel.

This video shows decent penetration of #4 high brass into calibrated gel at 10 feet. 10 to 15 feet is what I'd call max range for use of high brass birdshot.....plenty of people live in homes where that's the max range they'd be preparing for. The video also states buckshot is a better option if your not concerned about over penetration.....but we knew that from the start.

I've never proposed high brass birdshot as the BEST option.......but in specific home layouts it is a viable option. High brass 1 1/4 ounce loads pack high energy before the payload spreads out which is 5 to 7 yards. Past 5 to 7 yards the single projectiles in a wider pattern have less energy to penetrate multiple internal and external walls. That's the solid concept in my opinion.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqZaVQW7O4&t=12s

No clothing layer, individual BBs penetrate to 8.25~" but most stop short of that.

The FBI pistol standard is like 14-16" of penetration through denim.

Thanks for posting a video that proves my point that birdshot sucks.

If you have to use a shotgun, get some federal flight control and some training and call it good.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Your entire outlook here is based on the presumption that you will fail to hit a torso sized target "under stress" inside of 15-20' with a long gun. Yet you got mad when i suggested you get training, it would appear from your argument that you dont have confidence in yourself to make such a shot under stress, so you decide to handicap your effectiveness and plan for yourself to miss the shot.

 

[whacko]

Your entire outlook here is based on the presumption that you will fail to hit a torso sized target "under stress" inside of 15-20' with a long gun. Yet you got mad when i suggested you get training, it would appear from your argument that you dont have confidence in yourself to make such a shot under stress, so you decide to handicap your effectiveness and plan for yourself to miss the shot.

If your referring to me I didn't get mad. Just giving you the information I have on the subject. As far as "training" goes I have confidence in my abilities....but accept that a miss is possible under stress. I don't see any problem with that assessment.

Also I've told you I don't use a shotgun for home defense I have a m and p 45acp bedside. However.....if I were giving advice to someone that lived in an apartment complex that only had a shotgun and limited training time that high brass birdshot is an acceptable alternative (not optimal) to a rifle or scatter gun with buckshot.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

If your referring to me I didn't get mad. Just giving you the information I have on the subject. As far as "training" goes I have confidence in my abilities....but accept that a miss is possible under stress. I don't see any problem with that assessment.

Also I've told you I don't use a shotgun for home defense I have a m and p 45acp bedside. However.....if I were giving advice to someone that lived in an apartment complex that only had a shotgun and limited training time that high brass birdshot is an acceptable alternative (not optimal) to a rifle or scatter gun with buckshot.

I dont think you should be giving any advice on the matter period based on the information you've provided, you've obviously never taken a scattergun class, never used one in le/mil capacity, you arent even currently using one to defend your own home. It seems your only leg to stand on is that you watched some bogus tests some dude did on youtube.

If it seems like im singling you out im sorry, its really not my intention, its just this is how stupid shit like "birdshot is better than throwing rocks in a pinch" becomes "birdshot is better than buckshot inside houses", or "as soon as a criminal hears you rack a shotgun he's gonna shit his pants and run away" instead of "if you give away your position and weapon type in a gun fight that you can expect to be maneuvered on". Through the repitition and factual distortions of people who are uninformed yet parrot things they heard or thing they heard or were told by some tactical jesus douchebag on Instagram.

There is no police agency or military unit in the world that issues birdshot to their officers/troops for use in urban situations where over penetration may be an issue. If you are truly worried about over penetration in the event of a miss id highly suggest looking at what the Federal Air Marshals carry and how they train, IIRC last time i talked to one they're carrying .357 sig with 147gr Federal HST but they have some of the highest training and marksmanshipstandards in the world, some food for thought there.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Wow, an old fashioned rack-a-shotgun, shit-your-pants thread. It's been a while since I've seen one of these.