Semi going full auto?

[2 Bear Arms]

I have heard stories (extremely rare) of semi automatic firearms going full auto. When I heard these stories I was always under the impression the way they were told that it involved a part that broke. And after the firearm had expended all of the rounds in the magazine it could not be fired again till it was repaired. In other words it was inoperable, it was broken. Is that what has happened?

Does anyone have any experience with this type of situation? It sounds scary to me and I would think that it might result in a lot of rounds going into the ceiling in an indoor range and a lot going over the backstop at an outdoor range.

Are there any symptoms leading up to this type of failure or is everything just fine till it breaks. Does it keep firing even if the trigger is released?

I guess one of the reasons that I ask is if this were to happen and you were then challenged by so law enforcement personnel how would you prove that it was a malfunction.

I am just curious, no ulterior motive here.

 

[Pilgrim]

a sticky firing pin could cause it to go 'full auto' also known as a slam fire.

This is not uncommon is SKS's. when the pin gets dirty and can't retract. Clean it and it's fine. Nothing broken here.

 

[pj150]

Cosmoline and sks rifles are a recurring story. Firing pin channel filled with gunk which caused the floating firing pin to be stuck forward. As the bolt slams forward, ignites the round- again and again.

 

[Dexion1619]

Yes, it can happen, depending on what type of firearm you are dealing with. One example would be a rifle with a floating style firing pin that gets stuck in the forward position (dew to a poped primer or not cleaning the weapon). In this case the rifle will keep shooting until out of ammo, or it jams. Not all models have this problum, and for those that do its just something to be aware of... Just make sure to clean/inspect/repair when needed and it is unlikly to happen.

ETA Lol what they said, took longer to type on my phone.

 

[Danrk6]

This is not something you should be worried about. The only time I have every seen or heard of this happening is with a trigger job that was pushed a bit too far. The automatic fire was not a result of broken parts but rather **********************. If you ********************************. In all of the cases that I have witnessed, the gun ceased fire when the trigger was released. Often times it will look like a bump fire.

The gun I am talking about is an AR15.

 

[atmay]

We also ought to note here that full-auto fire resulting from a mechanical problem will get the ATF on your ass for possession of an illegal machine gun. They will confiscate the gun, and pour as many rounds through it as they need to to get it to do it again.

I forget the exact particulars of the case (hopefully someone will remember what I'm talking about and dig up the case info), but a man (soldier, IIRC) shooting a BORROWED AR that started doubling due to worn out internals got hooked up pretty good by the ATF for machine gun possession.

 

[Dexion1619]

Yea, never post videos of your gun malfunctioning on youtube.... That falls under the heading of "Asking for trouble".

 

[TheRoland]

I almost had this happen when re-assembling a detail-stripped 1911. For whatever reason, the firing pin stop jammed the pin in a forward (but not protruding) position, and dropping the slide on a loaded round made a dimple in the primer. This failure was basically not visible beforehand, as it was just a matter of a millimeter or so, and did not cause a function check to fail.

Gun was pointed in a safe direction, but 7 203gr +P rounds on full-auto would have been a really nasty surprise. I will no longer administrative reload a gun I've detail-stripped until I've proven it with live rounds on a range.

 

[drgrant]

We also ought to note here that full-auto fire resulting from a mechanical problem will get the ATF on your ass for possession of an illegal machine gun. They will confiscate the gun, and pour as many rounds through it as they need to to get it to do it again.

I forget the exact particulars of the case (hopefully someone will remember what I'm talking about and dig up the case info), but a man (soldier, IIRC) shooting a BORROWED AR that started doubling due to worn out internals got hooked up pretty good by the ATF for machine gun possession.

David Olofson?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson

He let this guy borrow one of his rifles. The rifle had a hodgepodge of fire control parts in it, that allowed the gun to lapse into burst mode somehow. Cops came, sic'ed BATFE on him, and then he said "Well, it's not my rifle... " and basically then played rat from there on out.

It's still unclear to me what the actual "evidence" was in terms of the rifle. EG- is there a third hole in the lower near the selector or not? Is there a DIAS in the lower, or not? A bunch of questions haven't really been answered.

-Mike

 

[RichM]

David Olofson was the Soldier with the AR that fired full-auto.

Here's the link to the NES thread on the subject.

Here's a link to a blog that I just discovered that casts some doubts on the gun-forum stories about the case (you know, all that internet wisdom that we have!). Disclaimer: I have NOT yet read through this blog, so I neither endorse it nor do I yet agree to his findings...

 

[Nitro]

I had a .22 long ago that did that. Went from semi to one day double firing, next time I went out with a brick of .22's near the end it was doing 3-4 round bursts. Of course at that point you HAVE to run to walmart and get another 2 bricks. By the end of that is was pretty much full auto.

And the strangest part of that story is that rifle, even with the worn out sear i think it was that made it full auto, never killed anyone, I was stunned. I was expecting it to force me to go on a shooting rampage. It never happened.

Wish I would have kept it, even though i'd be terrified to go out in the woods nowadays and have someone hear it.

 

[Broc]

This is not something you should be worried about. **************In all of the cases that I have witnessed, the gun ceased fire when the trigger was released. Often times it will look like a bump fire.

The gun I am talking about is an AR15.

something similar happened to me with a Remington 700. I was loosening up the trigger (didnt file anything), but got it too loose, and every time i closed the bolt it would just fire. didnt need to pull the trigger.

 

[zerodown]

I have heard stories (extremely rare) of semi automatic firearms going full auto. When I heard these stories I was always under the impression the way they were told that it involved a part that broke. And after the firearm had expended all of the rounds in the magazine it could not be fired again till it was repaired. In other words it was inoperable, it was broken. Is that what has happened?

To answer your first question, it depends on what broke or what the issue was. In any event, any firearm that doubles or goes FA should not be fired again until it is repaired. It can be considered a full auto firearm by police and the ATF can come down on you hard. Its somewhat of a greater risk in basement trigger jobs when too much material is taken off internals or things are adjusted incorrectly.

 

[MisterHappy]

It can happen, without mailce or intent.

I knew of a person (now deceased) that had a Hi Standard 22 pistol that had been either fiddled with, or was gunked up inside, and would empty a mag faster than you could react. If the disconnector is not operating, then you can have an unpleasant surprise. Moral of the story: Keep your toys clean, and don't do work that you're not competent to do.

I saw a target. 10 ring, 8 ring, 5 ring, top of the paper....all in a nice, straight line!

 

[Lamina]

The ATF has ruled that any gun that fires more than one round per trigger pull, even if it is malfunctioning and not designed to do so, is, and will always be, a machinegun.

Moral of the story is, if your gun doubles, or slam fires, put it away, tell no one and don't shoot it again until it's fixed.

Additionally, keep in mind, any gun firing in an "automatic" or "burst" manner that wasn't designed to have those features has a very real danger of firing out of battery. That can be very bad.

 

[M1911]

I have heard stories (extremely rare) of semi automatic firearms going full auto. When I heard these stories I was always under the impression the way they were told that it involved a part that broke. And after the firearm had expended all of the rounds in the magazine it could not be fired again till it was repaired. In other words it was inoperable, it was broken.

I've seen an M1A that doubled. No, it wasn't a broken part. Yes, it could be fired again. The trigger pack was sent to Springfield Armory and replaced pronto.

 

[atmay]

David Olofson?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson

He let this guy borrow one of his rifles. The rifle had a hodgepodge of fire control parts in it, that allowed the gun to lapse into burst mode somehow. Cops came, sic'ed BATFE on him, and then he said "Well, it's not my rifle... " and basically then played rat from there on out.

It's still unclear to me what the actual "evidence" was in terms of the rifle. EG- is there a third hole in the lower near the selector or not? Is there a DIAS in the lower, or not? A bunch of questions haven't really been answered.

-Mike

David Olofson was the Soldier with the AR that fired full-auto.

Here's the link to the NES thread on the subject.

Here's a link to a blog that I just discovered that casts some doubts on the gun-forum stories about the case (you know, all that internet wisdom that we have!). Disclaimer: I have NOT yet read through this blog, so I neither endorse it nor do I yet agree to his findings...

That'd be the one I was thinking of. Thanks!

 

[Dan R]

I have a Pardini target 22 that I shoot all the time. I took my wife to the range to try it out and for some reason it doubles or even triples when she shoots it. It has never done it for me. Must be in the way she holds the gun. She refuses to shoot it anymore.

 

[Broc]

I have a Pardini target 22 that I shoot all the time. I took my wife to the range to try it out and for some reason it doubles or even triples when she shoots it. It has never done it for me. Must be in the way she holds the gun. She refuses to shoot it anymore.

your rifle doesnt like women.

 

[boomerang]

your rifle doesnt like women.

It's a pistol.

This happens often with target guns. The trigger gets out of adjustment, or the breech face gets worn down and they double, or can expend the whole mag. No big deal. Just re-adjust the trigger, or fix the breech face.

 

[Woodstock]

Many moons ago I saw a brand new Colt polished stainless Gold Cup go full auto at an outdoor range. It went back to Hartford the next morning.

 

[2 Bear Arms]

Wow I guess it is more common then I thought.

Does the stuck firing pin mentioned only happen on rifles for some reason? A friend recently told me about a slam fire he had when his rifle got hot from use.

I had a defective brand new revolver a long time ago that luckily had a transfer bar because if you breathed on the trigger the hammer would fall. And I returned it immediately. I gather if that had been a semi auto it might have gone full auto, as has been described. It was a manufacturers trigger issue.

 

[fubar]

I bought a used Thompson Gun. ( Kahr/AutoOrd , semi-only ). Once I thought it doubled , but the ROF was amazingly fast. Then it did it again. I cleaned it very very well . Next time I shot it it began firing full auto for real. Not runaway , if I released the trigger it stopped.

I disassembled it at the range , and sent it the manufacturer the next morning. Previous owner had filed a few things ignorantly trying to lesson the atrocious trigger pull. Cost me 85 bucks plus shipping.

 

[RIFLEMAN1000]

Had it happen to me in a bad way. Was firing a CZ-52 that was military surplus and to my knowledge never had any trigger work done to it. Well the firing pins are noted for being weak and the tips break off all the time. In my case there is a small hole in the middle of the firing pin to facilitate removal. It broke at that point and turned pushing the firing pin to the firing position. Now comes the bad part it happened on the last round of the magazine , so i pop it out and drop in a new mag and Bang full auto luckily it fired 3 rounds before my thumb caught the slide and jammed it. Unfortunatly one round went through my left hand becuase the CZ 52 has no slide release so you must pull the slide back and release it with your off hand. I think its the only mechanical failure that went full auto that i have ever heard of that no one touched the trigger on .

 

[Kid Presentable]

had a 6.8spc AR double fire on me and I'm pretty sure it would have dumped the mag if it hadn't jammed...pretty scary stuff when you don't expect it, turns out the dude's brother-in-law did some trigger work and took it to far causing the malfunction.

 

[drgrant]

Had it happen to me in a bad way. Was firing a CZ-52 that was military surplus and to my knowledge never had any trigger work done to it. Well the firing pins are noted for being weak and the tips break off all the time. In my case there is a small hole in the middle of the firing pin to facilitate removal. It broke at that point and turned pushing the firing pin to the firing position. Now comes the bad part it happened on the last round of the magazine , so i pop it out and drop in a new mag and Bang full auto luckily it fired 3 rounds before my thumb caught the slide and jammed it. Unfortunatly one round went through my left hand becuase the CZ 52 has no slide release so you must pull the slide back and release it with your off hand. I think its the only mechanical failure that went full auto that i have ever heard of that no one touched the trigger on .

This isn't the first time I've heard of a CZ-52 going full retard like that, although usually just the safety breaks and the gun fires whenever it wants to.

http://www.harringtonproducts.com/cz-52-safety/

There's another CZ pistol (in .32 ACP) that is also best avoided. IIRC years ago a member here had one, was carrying it, dropped it on the floor in his bathroom, and the gun discharged and launched a .32 into his leg.

-Mike

 

[flintoid]

I have seen a built AK do the "double tap" no-no using an original combloc trigger set in a US receiver. It probably wouldn't do more than two shots in succession. But it still was doing it until I educated the owner on what kind of shit it could get him into.

He let me strip it and I examined the trigger function- the disconnector seemed to be engaging when I did the AK trigger-or-disconnector test as the hammer was catching on the disconnector when the trigger was still being engaged by the operator's finger, but it was barely doing so. The "shock" of the carrier and bolt slamming back home on the chamber must have "jolted" the hammer out of disconnector engagement, and then the hammer would fly home onto the back of the bolt, slamming the firing pin.

The engagement was retardedly low. And the angle of engagement surfaces was almost collinear with the direction of movement of the hammer- it must have been holding by pure friction. Told him to get a tapco g2 trigger group and then I left his ass there. Hope he figured it all out.

 

[mremski]

I almost had this happen when re-assembling a detail-stripped 1911. For whatever reason, the firing pin stop jammed the pin in a forward (but not protruding) position, and dropping the slide on a loaded round made a dimple in the primer. This failure was basically not visible beforehand, as it was just a matter of a millimeter or so, and did not cause a function check to fail.

Gun was pointed in a safe direction, but 7 203gr +P rounds on full-auto would have been a really nasty surprise. I will no longer administrative reload a gun I've detail-stripped until I've proven it with live rounds on a range.

Pencil test. Good old Ticonderoga #2, eraser end down the barrel first, thumb cock hammer, pull trigger. repeat a couple of times.
Sounds like the firing pin spring may have been weak or the FPS wasn't fitted tightly enough.

 

[Cabinetman]

The replies above pretty cover the gamut. Usually it's a failure of a part. But Double or triple taps do happen with 'weak' shooters who don't hold, say, and AR-15 properly. Any experienced shooter can "bump fire" his rifle by relaxing a hold and placing his trigger finger just right. I most certainly don't recommend this but it does happen when shooters don't apply the proper pressures on their stance.

The big problem with a slam-fire firearm is not so much that it dumps a mag but it does it in an uncontrolled manner. If you aren't prepared for this you could easily spray ammo all over the place. An inexpeienced shooter could easily lose control or even drop the firearm. Diligence is the only answer here.

In my own case, ANY new semi-auto rifle will NEVER get more than one round in it the first time it goes to the range. I shoot that round and examine the brass. Then, if it's ok, I'll insert two rounds and shoot time to make sure that they go bang one at a time. Only then will I install five and try them until I get up to the full mag capacity.

Finally, and most importantly.........this is probably the best time to say that you should NEVER EVER load a pistol or rifle that you've torn down and reassembled unless you can guarantee that you won't cause a slamfire in your home and you can't guarantee that. A slamfire in your home, my friend, would be VERY BAD. Never load a semi-auto rifle/pistol in your home and let the bolt go home. Imagine what the results would be. A soft primer and a stogey pin is all you need to be in the papers the next day. Even your carry pistol should be range tested before you reload your mag. This may seem to be a bit conservative but let me tell you this........all it takes is one time for you to have an AD or ND in your house and trust me when I tell you that it will be a shorts-changing event. I have two carry pieces. One is a semi, one a revolver. When I detail my semi, I carry the revolver until I get the semi to the range.

Rome

 

[RichM]

Very good points, Cabinetman, some of which I hadn't considered. I once tried to reassemble the bolt in my Ruger MkIII with the firing pin spring in upside down. I don't think it went together without being obviously wrong, but if it had, or if I had forced it to go together, who knows what the result could have been.

I don't think that I would stop carrying my CCW due to a simple field-strip for cleaning, but it makes sense to consider leaving it in the safe after a tear-down, detail cleaning, or modifications to the action.