Self-defense for FBI agent killer?

[law dawg]

How many more lives need to be destroyed? How many more FBI agents need to be killed? The failed War on Drugs needs to come to a close.

The quicker this "war" ends, the better. Now they'll be two children that grow up with both parents locked up. And now, the parents of a fallen FBI agent need to bury their son. Two familes' lives destroyed. For what? Because somebody wanted to get high? Pathetic.

This is can agree with. As a career LEO, I'm no fan of drug laws. Not the state's business, IMO.

That said, it is the law of the land currently, and killing a fed over business is unacceptable.

 

[Half Cocked]

then IMHO they got what they deserved.

Thank you for your sensitivity on the matter as NO ONE deserves to be shot and killed.

 

[Half Cocked]

Interesting, though, that SHE'S not named on the drug charges - usually the cops will throw everything they can at the suspect in the hope that something will stick.

Why is it interesting...she had no involvement.

and a possible death sentence for no-knock warrants if she's acquitted. Assuming, of course, that all that we've seen in the article is true.

Where did the article say that they had a search warrant..let alone a no-knock?

Edit..*****Further research revealed that they may have had a search warrant**

 

[Half Cocked]

Chalk up another casualty (or two) in the wonderful war on (some) drugs and the increasing militarization of police operations.

Ken

This casualty would have happened whether the warrant was for drugs or rape or stolen property etc.....The tragedy aspect had nothing to do with the "war on drugs".

How was this militarization of police operations?

 

[Half Cocked]

Maybe the officers forgot to announce themselves.

And maybe she knew exactly who they were and what they were doing!

 

[Half Cocked]

Serve the warrant when he's not around.

Do you know the specifics of the investigation and whether or not they would have been able to prove possession of the drugs if he were not present?

 

[RG617]

Thank you for your sensitivity on the matter as NO ONE deserves to be shot and killed.

Really? Want to rethink that statement...?

 

[Half Cocked]

Really? Want to rethink that statement...?

Alright you got me!

 

[appraiser]

Nobody deserves to have their door kicked in at 6 AM by the FBI. I have no love for coke dealers trust me, I hope the guy gets lots of time for possession with intent to distribute, but the tactics used by the FBI really concern me. They didn't learn from Waco when they could have gotten Koresh on one of his many visits to town. They didn't learn from Ruby Ridge. I understand the desire to get all the bad guys at once using simultaneous raids, but they had to know there were other people including children in the house when they planned the raid. There has to be a better way to execute warrants than " FBI.. we have a warrant open up" at 6 AM.. pre dawn at this time of the year.

Someone at the local FBI office is going to have to look him or herself in the mirror for a damn long time and try to justify if getting a couple Kilos of coke was worth an agents life, destroying his family, and the effects it is going to have on the children involved on both sides of that thin blue line.

In these troubled times, when home invasions are on the rise, it is not in my opinion, unreasonable for homeowners to assume the worst when their doors get kicked in under the cover of darkness. When does it become unreasonable? How many more innocent people have to drop dead from heart attacks when the wrong door is kicked in. How many more law enforcement officers have to be lost in the line of duty because someone decided this was Fallujah and not the United States of America.

I know what I wrote about the FBI getting what it deserves sounds harsh. There has to be a better, and safer way to execute warrants. There has to be some consideration that there were minor children in the house. I know criminals don't have a lot of regard for the rule of law. Knowing that the subject of the warrant was a convicted felon and probably going to do what felons do when they know they are about to get busted on another felony charge, don't you think there was another way to handle this?

 

[Half Cocked]

Nobody deserves to have their door kicked in at 6 AM by the FBI.

Sure about that?

but the tactics used by the FBI really concern me.

The "tactics" have nothing to do with the FBI. If I am not mistaken it was a DEA search warrant. The FBI was assisting them.

They didn't learn from Waco when they could have gotten Koresh on one of his many visits to town.

This was not Waco or Ruby Ridge. Different type of case and investigation.

There has to be a better way to execute warrants than " FBI.. we have a warrant open up" at 6 AM.. pre dawn at this time of the year.

Hundreds of warrants like this are executed every day across america. Only those involved in this incident are going to be able to determine what, if anything, could have been done different.

There has to be a better, and safer way to execute warrants.

If there was.....law enforcement would welcome it.

There has to be some consideration that there were minor children in the house.

I am absolutely sure that there was. Every one that I have been involved in has taken this into consideration. The problem is that you still have to maintain your objective.

We have held off on execution of warrants until the children have left for school on some warrants but there are times you just have to go in.

don't you think there was another way to handle this?

Not without knowing all aspects of the investigation.


I have done hundreds of these search warrants and have never had any problems but there have been some close calls even with the best of plans.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still have a tradgedy.

 

[law dawg]

Nobody deserves to have their door kicked in at 6 AM by the FBI. I have no love for coke dealers trust me, I hope the guy gets lots of time for possession with intent to distribute, but the tactics used by the FBI really concern me. They didn't learn from Waco when they could have gotten Koresh on one of his many visits to town. They didn't learn from Ruby Ridge. I understand the desire to get all the bad guys at once using simultaneous raids, but they had to know there were other people including children in the house when they planned the raid. There has to be a better way to execute warrants than " FBI.. we have a warrant open up" at 6 AM.. pre dawn at this time of the year.

Someone at the local FBI office is going to have to look him or herself in the mirror for a damn long time and try to justify if getting a couple Kilos of coke was worth an agents life, destroying his family, and the effects it is going to have on the children involved on both sides of that thin blue line.

In these troubled times, when home invasions are on the rise, it is not in my opinion, unreasonable for homeowners to assume the worst when their doors get kicked in under the cover of darkness. When does it become unreasonable? How many more innocent people have to drop dead from heart attacks when the wrong door is kicked in. How many more law enforcement officers have to be lost in the line of duty because someone decided this was Fallujah and not the United States of America.

I know what I wrote about the FBI getting what it deserves sounds harsh. There has to be a better, and safer way to execute warrants. There has to be some consideration that there were minor children in the house. I know criminals don't have a lot of regard for the rule of law. Knowing that the subject of the warrant was a convicted felon and probably going to do what felons do when they know they are about to get busted on another felony charge, don't you think there was another way to handle this?

How does one execute a warrant to search a house without searching a house?

 

[dsm]

Someone at the local FBI office is going to have to look him or herself in the mirror for a damn long time and try to justify if getting a couple Kilos of coke was worth an agents life, destroying his family, and the effects it is going to have on the children involved on both sides of that thin blue line.

+1

Best sentence in the entire thread. Because it's true regardless of the circumstances of the case. Whether the woman did or didn't know it was police, whether the man is or isn't a scumbag, whether they did or didn't identify themselves. Busting in people's doors in the night is a damn dangerous way to do business, and it just doesn't seem worth the risk for this crime.

 

[law dawg]

It's a raid of a house, folks. It's hard to search a house without actually going inside it.

 

[Half Cocked]

It's a raid of a house, folks. It's hard to search a house without actually going inside it.

I think it is tough to grasp this concept for some.

There are bad guys in this world.

 

[MagnumAl]

Shouldn't the federales have known there was a a person living in that home with a CCW? I would imagine perhaps a higher level of body armor, or some other strategy could have been implemented.

And I agree...drugs surely do ruin lives, but this seems to have been a bit of poor decision making, from the facts known.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It's a raid of a house, folks. It's hard to search a house without actually going inside it.

Could one of the LE professionals explain why they couldn't just wait for the suspect to exit, and grab him when he was out in the open (allowing LE to maintain sight from the time they initiate the arrest to final capture) rather than kick down a door?

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

The FBI was issuing a search warrant at a KNOWN drug house. A known drug house usually has people inside who do not follow the laws. Those individuals enjoy breaking said laws and will usually fight if confronted. Thus, I am sure the FBI had to know there were GUNS in the house...and that there was a real possibility that the criminals would repel borders.

Where I am amazed is that the woman was able to live to tell the tale and the FEDS did not light her up in the process of the gun fight...

Does this not go under the safety rules of "Always know your target.."

 

[drgrant]

Does this not go under the safety rules of "Always know your target.."

While that sentiment is wonderful, think about what it means for a minute... it might mean "oh shit there's this guy with a gun in his hand that just smashed my door down, he's got a gun pointed right at me what should I do?" and having to process that in a split second to determine whether or not that guy is a threat.

Would be fun to run some scenarios with simunitions in a little shoot house. Take a guy with street clothes on, then take a guy dressed as a cop, in limited or low light. randomize the appearance so that the person "guarding" the house will not know who is going to strike. I can easily foresee scenarios where the "wrong" people are gonna get shot.

-Mike

 

[Cross-X]

Interesting, though, that SHE'S not named on the drug charges - usually the cops will throw everything they can at the suspect in the hope that something will stick.

This could be very interesting... and a possible death sentence for no-knock warrants if she's acquitted. Assuming, of course, that all that we've seen in the article is true.

I'd take up her defense in a heartbeat!

 

[fobes34]

1: It's 6am, the first thing you hear when you wake up is "police" are you really gonna understand whats happening, I mean if I am woken up by someone at 6am I am completely out of it and all I would have heard is someone breaking into my home, unless they consistently said "police we have a search warrant" throughout the raid I am going to think "intruders" and act accordingly.

2: They should have known that someone with a CCW lived at the residence and there were kids living there.

Yes it is tragic that an FBI agent lost there life but seriously if the news is portraying this correctly she acted in self defense.

 

[FunYun]

I think it is tough to grasp this concept for some.

There are bad guys in this world.

LoL, who here doesn't know that?

Our point is these bad guys are mixed in with good people. The current tactic of the police is to steam roll the house and everyone thats in it. We as the people do not accept the collateral damage that results from these raids. It is not worth anyones life to get cocaine off the street from people who WANT to use it.

 

[FunYun]

The FBI was issuing a search warrant at a KNOWN drug house. A known drug house usually has people inside who do not follow the laws. Those individuals enjoy breaking said laws and will usually fight if confronted. Thus, I am sure the FBI had to know there were GUNS in the house...and that there was a real possibility that the criminals would repel borders.

Where I am amazed is that the woman was able to live to tell the tale and the FEDS did not light her up in the process of the gun fight...

Does this not go under the safety rules of "Always know your target.."

What non-pussefied individual would not attempt to repel an invasion of their home? People other than criminals have the balls to defend themselves from perceived attacks.

Kicking in someones door at the crack of dawn while carrying weapons makes you the target. I really can't understand why LEO don't get this. Until you have unequivocally identified yourself as a LEO, people are going to think the worst, and react with that assumption.

 

[terraformer]

Kicking in someones door at the crack of dawn while carrying weapons makes you the target. I really can't understand why LEO don't get this. Until you have unequivocally identified yourself as a LEO, people are going to think the worst, and react with that assumption.

In an unarmed world, only criminals have the guns so only criminals would be at "risk". Let's face it, most of the world is unarmed.

 

[Ma$$hole]

Personally I think this lady watched too much Scarface. Sounds like she sat at the top of her stairs trying to get shots off from there. If I'm not wrong PA has NO Castle Doctrine so her ass should have been pinned up against a wall, in a bedroom, furthest away from the door. She also should have been making an attempt to escape the house with the children. I have two horses in this race b/c I am a gun owner and I hope to have the privilege of becoming a Federal Agent. That Fed should not have been clearing a house alone and from the looks of it relatively lightly armored. For someone to yell "I'm hit" and die soon after means there's a good chance it wasn't a headshot which means she hit an artery or she got (un)lucky and landed one under his arms or down his neck. Overall, a gun owner is F'd... a Federal Agent has been killed... and that's just the beginning of it.

 

[Martlet]

Not that lady. Now, someone is dead and she is facing charges because the law kicked in her door without proper identification.

In an unarmed world, only criminals have the guns so only criminals would be at "risk". Let's face it, most of the world is unarmed.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Personally I think this lady watched too much Scarface. Sounds like she sat at the top of her stairs trying to get shots off from there. If I'm not wrong PA has NO Castle Doctrine so her ass should have been pinned up against a wall, in a bedroom, furthest away from the door. She also should have been making an attempt to escape the house with the children. I have two horses in this race b/c I am a gun owner and I hope to have the privilege of becoming a Federal Agent. That Fed should not have been clearing a house alone and from the looks of it relatively lightly armored. For someone to yell "I'm hit" and die soon after means there's a good chance it wasn't a headshot which means she hit an artery or she got (un)lucky and landed one under his arms or down his neck. Overall, a gun owner is F'd... a Federal Agent has been killed... and that's just the beginning of it.

Lucky you. There appears to be a new opening with the FED.

 

[law dawg]

Could one of the LE professionals explain why they couldn't just wait for the suspect to exit, and grab him when he was out in the open (allowing LE to maintain sight from the time they initiate the arrest to final capture) rather than kick down a door?

I'll say it again - BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO SEARCH THE HOUSE.

You can't search a house without going inside it. Where did people come up with this was an arrest warrant? It wasn't - it was a raid of a premises, looking for contraband. They had no warrant to arrest the man, per se, from what I read. Regardless, the evidence seized would not have been had they not searched the house.

 

[FunYun]

Personally I think this lady watched too much Scarface. Sounds like she sat at the top of her stairs trying to get shots off from there. If I'm not wrong PA has NO Castle Doctrine so her ass should have been pinned up against a wall, in a bedroom, furthest away from the door. She also should have been making an attempt to escape the house with the children. I have two horses in this race b/c I am a gun owner and I hope to have the privilege of becoming a Federal Agent. That Fed should not have been clearing a house alone and from the looks of it relatively lightly armored. For someone to yell "I'm hit" and die soon after means there's a good chance it wasn't a headshot which means she hit an artery or she got (un)lucky and landed one under his arms or down his neck. Overall, a gun owner is F'd... a Federal Agent has been killed... and that's just the beginning of it.

She fired one shot.

The lack of a castle doctrine should not be construed to mean it is illegal to defend yourself, thats just stupid. The law describes what we cannot do, not what we can.

Thats it, jump from a second story floor with your kids, ARE YOU f***ING SUICIDAL?

Please god no, you'll still get someone killed.

He was not alone, just the first one in, he was also hit in the calor area.

 

[law dawg]

I'd take up her defense in a heartbeat!

You'd lose. Knowledge is not a requirement nor one of the essential elements of 18 USC 1114.

Was the officer in performance of his duties? Check. Did she then kill him while in performance of same? Check.

She's done like dinner.

 

[law dawg]

1: It's 6am, the first thing you hear when you wake up is "police" are you really gonna understand whats happening, I mean if I am woken up by someone at 6am I am completely out of it and all I would have heard is someone breaking into my home, unless they consistently said "police we have a search warrant" throughout the raid I am going to think "intruders" and act accordingly.

2: They should have known that someone with a CCW lived at the residence and there were kids living there.

Yes it is tragic that an FBI agent lost there life but seriously if the news is portraying this correctly she acted in self defense.

Self defense is a legal term and in this case, because it was a fed, she didn't.