Second Amendment Sisters

reinbeau

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How many MA-SAS members are posting here? Just wondering.

LenS said something that bothered me a bit, he said that he was dropping his membership after this year because 'men aren't welcome'. I think that's sad, actually, although I think I understand the rationality. Women need to become independently competent with their guns, and sometimes if their man is around they defer to them, or sometimes the man isn't as supportive as he could be, he intimidates her a bit, and she doesn't develop the confidence she could if she were learning alone. I don't think it's that men aren't welcome, just that they shouldn't be at the official meetings/instruction.....someone correct me if I'm offbase on this.

I can understand LenS feelings in the matter, however. SAS is a good organization and needs support, it's too bad there wasn't a 'Brother' supporter category or somesuch :)
 
I don't,and i would not join anything where my husband would not be welcome. We have always done things as a family and if my husband and son are not welcome then I want no part. I should point out we always join things that are family friendly, even in my husbands other hobbies. As he puts it if I am not welcome then he wants no part and visa versa.
 
Well, I agree, I don't like the 'not welcome' thing. My husband and I belong to Hanson Rod and Gun Club, but I have access to good training through the SAS meetings, so I joined. He's thrilled I'm getting practice and instruction....then again, he isn't the kind of guy who would get in my way learning. Other women aren't so lucky..... :?
 
Glenn isn't either,but I also had Uncle Sam train me. [wink] I am sure it's probably a good organization, and has it's purpose. It just would not be for me or my family. We use the same criteria in choosing a club,must be family friendly. I also don't mind learning from my husband either. We have always supported each other in what ever it is we want to do. Just happens t be I like alot of his hobbies. Firearms being one of them. [lol]
 
My thoughts are this:

We as a pro-gun/pro-2nd Amendment folks should NOT fracture into splinter groups. I mean, it makes it much more to 'divide and conquor'. Makes it to easy for the gun grabbers to gradually pass laws aimed at one group and not really geared at the others and thus having bit better chance of passing.

As the old addage 'United we stand, divided we fall.'
 
Totally in agreement,which is why I would never join something like that. If they accept me then they have to accept my husband and my son. Just my .02. [lol]
 
Skald said:
My thoughts are this:

We as a pro-gun/pro-2nd Amendment folks should NOT fracture into splinter groups. I mean, it makes it much more to 'divide and conquor'. Makes it to easy for the gun grabbers to gradually pass laws aimed at one group and not really geared at the others and thus having bit better chance of passing.

As the old addage 'United we stand, divided we fall.'

It's not that SAS is trying to splinter off, Skald. When SAS started, it was in response to the million mom march, and it literally was started by a very few within moments after MMM made the news. I joined SAS as soon as I heard about it to offset the impact of MMM. It's come a long way since then and it's don't a lot of good things.

I don't mean to slam SAS, however, Len's case COULD have been handled a bit better. That being said, there are some women who aren't comfortable with men being around due to their (the woman's) history. She may have been abused, battered, raped, etc. And, until such time as she can feel more proficient with a firearm and not feel so helpless and defenseless, I can understand them not being comfortable around men. That's not ALL women who join SAS, but there are a few in the group.

The important thing (and every Sister I know will say this) is that we get women into the shooting sports. The more women that are involved, the more women will become involved. That's the goal, and a damn good one at that.
 
I'm not naming names or implying anything (read between the lines) but as the only female instructor in my area I see some, umm, ogling, of female students. Also every now and then there is some "little lady" or "honey" talk that would never, ever happen if it was a man speaking to a man.

While I don't agree with a separation of the sexes for many things, in something as sensitive as firearms, I don't think it's terrible to have certain events that are female oriented.

I won't go so far as to say that men aren't welcome, but there should be times and events where women are the focus and me are in the non-ogling background...
 
Jen,

If SAS had a policy and let everyone know what it was, I'd have no problem with it.

The info I got directly from Lynne R was at first OK, later "the group needs to discuss it", and finally I never heard a word from her on a decision. Two+ months later when I pushed her for an answer, I got a wishy-washy response that was as clear as mud. Meanwhile the woman who raised the issue (when another woman asked if her boyfriend could attend the sessions with her) totally ignores my Wife and I like we don't exist, won't respond when I say "hi" to her at the club, etc. She used to be very friendly with us and even sat with us at a couple of club events.

When they are practicing, they lack adequate supervision on the range for the women who aren't experienced shooters. A few of us took a tour of AFS on Monday and the discussion there is very relevant to SAS' events . . . there could be legal issues with the way things are run as some don't have any licenses and if they aren't being supervised by a licensee, it may be illegal to let them be on the range with guns/ammo (something that the Asst Mgr of AFS mentioned when we asked him about AFS' policies regarding young/unlicensed shooters). [The SAS supervision issue has already been raised as a serious safety concern by a SAS participant (not me or my Wife) to at least one club officer at BR&P. This apparently occurred during a session we didn't attend.]
 
LenS said:
When they are practicing, they lack adequate supervision on the range for the women who aren't experienced shooters. A few of us took a tour of AFS on Monday and the discussion there is very relevant to SAS' events . . . there could be legal issues with the way things are run as some don't have any licenses and if they aren't being supervised by a licensee, it may be illegal to let them be on the range with guns/ammo (something that the Asst Mgr of AFS mentioned when we asked him about AFS' policies regarding young/unlicensed shooters). [The SAS supervision issue has already been raised as a serious safety concern by a SAS participant (not me or my Wife) to at least one club officer at BR&P. This apparently occurred during a session we didn't attend.]


That's not good. I'm of the opinion that inexperienced shooters need one on one attention. That aside, I can understand why you would have a problem with a non-policy policy of "no men." If it's a strict policy, which I think is fine, then own it. But don't flounder on it for fear of offending.
If the goal is to foster a supportive environment for women, by women, then it should be just that. Women.
I wouldn't say that it's a splinter group as much as an opportunity for women to grow comfortable enough with themselves to freely join "the boys."
 
Wow, Len, it seems I joined SAS right about the time things went sour for you. I'm very sorry it's gone that way for you, it isn't right....I'm replying to your e-mail with more.

My thoughts on SAS echoe Lynne's (moderator Lynne). I have absolutely no problem with men :P but other women who haven't had supportive relationships or whatever with men feel differently, some lack confidence, etc. Anything that gets them involved with shooting is a Good Thing. The first day I was at a SAS practice was probably that August meeting, and I agree, it was scary, too many inexperienced shooters with very little supervision - I believe Michael said drunken monkeys with machine guns would have been safer! I came to SAS thinking I'd get instruction (I had some experience shooting with my husband, but no formal training), when it didn't start to happen until the October meeting I got a little nervous. I will stay with the group as long as Michael does, when he goes, I'll probably get more involved with Hanson R&G Club, although I've found that group of women a bit closed, they don't respond to e-mail questions, etc. Cliques can be such a pain, and aren't we too old for that stuff? Obviously not :(
 
I think the SAS may have some good points.

I've found that new female shooters are more comfortable if another lady shows them how to shoot.

I've also noted that some men have a very condenscending attitude to new female shooters. That to me is 100% unacceptable.
 
I'm definately not the norm, and after reading all of this it definately puts it in my mind I would never belong to SAS under any circumstance. I do not like unsafe handling of weapons, etc. It was drilled into me so much by my DI's I would not want to be around that many unsafe people not being supervised. [evil]
 
Mr.s Wildweasel, not all of us have had the benefit of military training. SAS does have some very good things to offer, it just has to be managed properly. It's being worked on. If it isn't for you, then so be it, but it is good for many other women who aren't comfortable with guns. I am, I'm just looking for good instruction, and Michael is definitely providing it. There is no unsafe gun handling with him around.
 
IIRC, Lynne or Sue has mentioned something about getting the ladies together when we do a range day. That is a good idea, IMNSHO.

ETA - Ann, my current assigned military weapon is an M9 (and an M2 Machine Gun mounted on a BIG vehicle). I have received NO formal training by the military on it. We go to the range, and if you don't qualify, you'll get some assistance and instruction from someone that can qualify.
 
I had talked with Lynne R several times a few years back. At that time they didn't have a lot of trained women instructors to train their members or supervise shooting sessions. I offered a couple of times to run an NRA instructor workshop just for their people for just the cost of the materials. Both times she was polite and indicated that she'd like to do that and would get back to me. Never heard another word.

Ken
 
I think it would be a good idea also Nickle. See what we can work out. I said in the other thread SAS has it's place. Just not for everyone. It also needs to make its policy very clear on men. I also understand not all women for whatever reason are comfortable shooting around men. Also I stated in the other thread that there are men (not the ones on this board) that have caveman attitudes toward women. So I can see where it is a problem for some.
 
I wasn't in the military and didn't have any DI drill safety into my head, but my instructor did.

If the SAS doesn't have enough female instructors to saftely hold events and such like the one a few reported, they MAY want to gather the female instructors and/or those who have shot for a long time to ask for their ideas on possible men to bring in to help out.

Yes there are men who are condescending etc and may make intimidate them, but if the orginizers of an event tell the women 'We couldn't get enough women to help with instruction so the instructors here sat down and brought in a few men who have shown to be supportive and help to make sure things are safe. Or something like that.

I'm all for getting more women into the sport, but one bad accident on the range and you probably lost that person and who knows how many others with 'this is just to dangerous.'
 
You raise a good point Skald. Especially on the bad accident part. I am sure there are many men who would be willing to help,but it sounds like the organization needs to get its act together,so more women would be willing to come into the sport.
I would gladly take an instructors course.
 
Skald,

One woman (experienced shooter) has already reported what she perceived as unsafe and unsupervised safety issues and swore that she'd never return.

When SAS runs the one-day training (all-day), they do ask for men from BR&P to assist them. I was asked to help by Lynne R directly, in spite of this "open action item" about men that was still unresolved at the time. I told her that I would ONLY help if she resolved the issue first, so that I'd know my place (and the complainant would know that the issue was resolved). She just let the issue drop when I insisted on resolution first, so I didn't help. [Issue was raised the first time in August, 1-day training event was held in October IIRC.]

I also know one superb instructor who refused to have anything further to do with SAS training events. He expressed his concerns to both Lynne and myself (I asked why he didn't participate 2 years ago) for what they were trying to force-feed inexperienced students in a single day.
 
Are there any hot chicks that are members of SAS ? Is there a calendar or something I can look at and study ?

Why would a GUY want to be a member of a club that says SISTERS anyway ? I wouldn't mind hanging outside one of the meetings fondling my HK and checking the girls out though :P

LenS isn't it ironic that the SISTERS have to get a MAN to instruct them in the ways of the gun ?..LMAO!
 
Mod Hat On!

Greg,

SAS is NOT a "pickup bar"!

It is posts (and behavior) like you exhibited in this post that make them very leery of having any guys around their organization! Please take that kind of discussion back to GD on ARfcom where it is "the norm" . . . it doesn't belong in these forums!

For a serious answer to your serious questions:
Why would men want anything to do with SAS?
- To support their lady in learning to shoot and enjoying the sport, being able to defend herself!
* Men don't usually get grabbed, kidnapped and raped when walking to their cars in a <name your store/mall here> parking lot! But it DOES happen to women, and the ability to defend herself may result in a different outcome!

Why men instructors?
- There aren't (statistically) that many women who have been in the shooting sports for many years, and obtained instructor credentials. Thus, they often times have to rely on male instructors (hopefully supportive ones)
- Over time that will change and more women will become experienced shooters and get instructor certification and thus rely less on male instructors.
- When I was in college, I didn't give a damn whether my professors were male or female . . . as long as they were good at teaching the material. Why should it matter in shooting? It shouldn't matter!
 
Thanks Len!

I was going to say something about that posters inflated macho attitude but couldn't have put it half as eloquently as you did.

It no wonder that many women get intimidated. Having said that...Gee I wish I could find a single woman interested in shooting sports.
 
Greg said:
Maybe instead of wearing a mod hat,you should try a sense of humor hat sometimes. [roll]

Why do you feel the need to put a "mod hat on" to interject your opinion ?

Because he was correct in doing so. I realize your post was a failed attempt at humor and no offense was intended - bad timing and wrong place.

I'm not one to play the role of PC police but this thread happens to be one trying to get fence-sitters involved in our collective cause and will be read by many of them. Posts like yours is an example of what keeps them away, however misguided that may be.
 
Len just beat me to it. It is post like that , that are read by women that would turn them off of the sport. Should indicate you're joking. I have thick skin, and am not the norm,but would not want another woman offended by it. [wink]
 
Greg, YOU were out of place!

"Mod Hat On!" means it is NOT my opinion as an individual, but it DOES mean that someone did something wrong/inappropriate and is being told not to do it again or to correct it. Ignoring a "Mod Hat On!" post is at your own peril, because it means continued behavior in that mode WILL result in further action being taken.

Even as humor, it is the wrong thing to do and in the wrong place. Many women are very sensitive about the "macho" males and extend that to all/most males (look at the brief description of what went on at SAS-MA . . . and what I posted isn't even the half of it, but most is not appropriate for a public posting). They will not laugh at your type of post even if you tell them in bold, flashing letters that it was all in humor WHEN YOU POST IT (not afterwards - that's too little, too late)!

Derek and I saw so much of that crap (not noted as humor) on ARfcom, that it was for that very reason that Derek started these forums and asked me to be one of the Mods here.

We can't afford to lose one lady due to our Neanderthal ways! Think about it! Women typically raise the children and if the women are anti-gun, their off-spring have a much better than even chance of being indoctrinated that way too. We MUST (as males) put our egos behind us and genuinely welcome any and all women to everything to do with the shooting sports, if we want to do what we must to give us a better chance that the next generation won't be banned from gun ownership.

Now I suggest that you apologize here and refrain from any further remarks along that line, even if in jest!
 
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