Searched, still confused re. Class A restricted

[gzkrutoy]

Hi, I just got a call from the local PD letting me know that my gun permit can be picked up on Friday...great news!
It will most likely be a class A with a target & hunting restriction.
Here's where my confusion comes in. The instructor who taught the gun safety course is telling me that with that type of a license, I can carry my gun concealed when I am going to a gun club or hunting. The detective who was processing my application told me that I can't carry concealed at all.
Thw MA general laws aren't clear and I searched this forum and can't find a clear answer also...
Can someone tell me definitively whether or not I can carry my pisstol on me while driving to a gun club???

Thanks
Gene

 

[appraiser]

your license can be used to transport unloaded ,not concealed, to the range.

The only place you can carry the gun concealed and loaded is on your own property

easiest way to describe your license is it is a LTC B that lets you own high capacity guns, pretty much useless for CCW.

 

[Tim94gt]

I would do what the detective told you.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The answer is "whatever your PD says it is" and if you are ever stopped, add "whatever the officer who stops you thinks it should be" to that mix.

That is the inherent problem with restrictions . . . there is no set answer that you can take to the bank and ensure you won't be paying a lawyer to argue it for you at some later time.

 

[KMaurer]

While there are no "official" definitions of exactly what various restrictions mean and what is and isn't allowed with each, relying on common sense is generally safe in this instance. Several law enforcement agencies have published lists of definitions, none of which have much legal standing, but all of which pretty much conform to common sense. "Hunting and Target" or "Sporting Purposes" mean than you can use the firearm for those activities, which reasonably includes transporting it to and from the location where those activities occur. The state has very clear rules on what constitutes legal transportation, which quite clearly don't include concealed carry. Unloaded and in a locked container is always safe; anything else is running a risk of finding yourself unsuitable at the least and paying for a criminal defense attorney as a distinct possibility.

Ken

 

[M1911]

If your licensing officer wanted you to be able to carry concealed, he would have given you an unrestricted license. He didn't. So I wouldn't, if I were in your shoes.

Yes, it sucks.

 

[SGZip]

I'm not sure that I understand either. I thought that the only reason for restriction on an LTC-A was to limit CONCEALED carry.

If no carry was intended, then why wouldn't they make a restriction like "NO CARRY" instead of "SPORTING" or something similar? I mean, an FID or an LTC-B can be used for all lawful purposes except carry, right?

Or can they put a "SPORTING" restriction on your LTC-A, and when you try to take your shotgun hunting, they arrest you because it didn't say "HUNTING" on your license???

 

[M1911]

They can put any restriction on your LTC that they feel like. No shooting when wearing green on Tuesdays with a full moon. And those restrictions mean whatever the chief or licensing officer decides they mean, which may change from time to time.

As for what "sporting" means, no one truly knows.

 

[joehaus]

If no carry was intended, then why wouldn't they make a restriction like "NO CARRY" instead of "SPORTING" or something similar? I mean, an FID or an LTC-B can be used for all lawful purposes except carry, right?

That would make to much sense.

 

[drgrant]

I'm not sure that I understand either. I thought that the only reason for restriction on an LTC-A was to limit CONCEALED carry.

If no carry was intended, then why wouldn't they make a restriction like "NO CARRY" instead of "SPORTING" or something similar? I mean, an FID or an LTC-B can be used for all lawful purposes except carry, right?

It's because "NO CARRY" isn't a selection in the drop down box, and the person is too lazy to type. No, I'm not kidding. Not to mention it may be more restrictive than intended. (for example, most issuing authorities that issue H+T don't care if someone carries a gun while hunting, for example. )

-Mike

 

[ochmude]

Brings up a question I never thought of. Can you hunt with an LTC restricted to employment? I assume yes, but, well, who knows in MA.

 

[SGZip]

Massachusetts doesn't allow a sidearm when hunting, and handgun hunting is extremely limited, and even then I think you need to openly carry, so it's not really an issue. Of course, those are hunting regulations.

However, I'm kind of shocked that, at least in theory, an LTC-A with restriction can actually be MORE restrictive in some ways than an FID. Because they can't put restrictions on an FID, right? And they can't deem anyone unsuitable for an FID, except by statute. That means the laws are even more messed up than I thought!

 

[ochmude]

Massachusetts doesn't allow a sidearm when hunting, and handgun hunting is extremely limited, and even then I think you need to openly carry, so it's not really an issue. Of course, those are hunting regulations, so probably just a fine from an EPO (or lose your hunting license), as long as you have the LTC.

Right, but I'm wondering if you can walk around in the woods with a shotgun if your LTC is restricted to employment purposes on only. I think you can have both an FID and an LTC, and that could cover you, but I'm not certain, and it's an interesting question that never occurred to me before.

 

[zeppelinfromled]

I'm not sure that I understand either. I thought that the only reason for restriction on an LTC-A was to limit CONCEALED carry.

If no carry was intended, then why wouldn't they make a restriction like "NO CARRY" instead of "SPORTING" or something similar? I mean, an FID or an LTC-B can be used for all lawful purposes except carry, right?

Or can they put a "SPORTING" restriction on your LTC-A, and when you try to take your shotgun hunting, they arrest you because it didn't say "HUNTING" on your license???

The only reason that I know of to restrict an LTC-A is to prohibit someone from carrying concealed. But since open carrying is (IMHO) a very poor idea in MA, that effectively prohibits the person from carrying at all (except in their home or when complying with the restrictions). The only restriction that I've seen is "Target and Hunting." But if a person had a "Sporting" restriction, I suspect that it would be pretty easy to convince anyone that it applies to both target shooting and hunting.

What other lawful purposes are there other than carry, target shooting (including IDPA, trap, etc), and hunting?

 

[Harleynut]

Well the class A with the restrictions would allow you to purchase, transport and shoot high cap guns at the range. With the class B your couln't do that.
Makes me wonder what driver licenses would be like if left to the local Pd's. I can see it now. Restriced to driving your kids to school and church etc.

 

[CubJ3]

Class A restrictions

One more question to a very tired and almost dead horse about concealed carry in MA. I have a "sporting" restriction on my class A LTC which also explicitly states "License to Carry firearms"; almost a non-sequitor in my opinion. But, be that as it may, is a class A "license to carry" license-ee allowed to carry if it is NOT a large capacity firearm?

A class B license claims one can carry any NON- large capacity firearm, and does not mention any restrictions under the class B license description.

 

[M1911]

One more question to a very tired and almost dead horse about concealed carry in MA. I have a "sporting" restriction on my class A LTC which also explicitly states "License to Carry firearms"; almost a non-sequitor in my opinion. But, be that as it may, is a class A "license to carry" license-ee allowed to carry if it is NOT a large capacity firearm?

Just because it is a license to carry, doesn't mean you can actually carry. The law itself references restrictions and gives them the force of law. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131 paragraph A, which reads, in part:

(a) A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) firearms, including large capacity firearms, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes, subject to such restrictions relative to the possession, use or carrying of firearms as the licensing authority deems proper; and (ii) rifles and shotguns, including large capacity weapons, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes; provided, however, that the licensing authority may impose such restrictions relative to the possession, use or carrying of large capacity rifles and shotguns as it deems proper. A violation of a restriction imposed by the licensing authority under the provisions of this paragraph shall be cause for suspension or revocation and shall, unless otherwise provided, be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000;

So, the restriction itself has the force of law. The next question is, what does the restriction mean? Since the restrictions are not codified in statute, that is unclear. In effect, it means what the licensing officer and/or police chief wants it to mean.

IMHO, if the licensing officer wanted you to be able to carry concealed (whether a large capacity handgun or a non-large capacity handgun), he would have issued you an unrestricted license. He didn't. So I wouldn't. YMMV.

A class B license claims one can carry any NON- large capacity firearm, and does not mention any restrictions under the class B license description.

Not quite correct. By statute, the holder of a class B LTC can not carry concealed, no matter what restriction is or is not placed on it by the issuing authority.

See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131, paragraph B, which reads, in part:

(b) A Class B license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) non-large capacity firearms and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes, subject to such restrictions relative to the possession, use or carrying of such firearm as the licensing authority deems proper; provided, however, that a Class B license shall not entitle the holder thereof to carry or possess a loaded firearm in a concealed manner in any public way or place;

Full text here: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm

If you choose to carry concealed on a restricted LTC, you do so at your peril. If you get caught, I would expect that you would have your LTC revoked, your guns and ammo confiscated, and that you would never get another LTC in MA ever again.

Yes, it does suck.

 

[CubJ3]

Restrictions

Thanks M1911. I appreciate your help. I have read 140 many times and it is still Greek to me. Yup it does suck, and I suspect I will never be issued a LTC without restrictions so long as I live in Worcester. Guess I'll have to move to a green town, or better yet Vermont. A shame that licensed gun owners who, for the most part, want to be compliant with the law seem to be the ones the law least wants to own guns.

 

[M1911]

Thanks M1911. I appreciate your help. I have read 140 many times and it is still Greek to me. Yup it does suck, and I suspect I will never be issued a LTC without restrictions so long as I live in Worcester. Guess I'll have to move to a green town, or better yet Vermont. A shame that licensed gun owners who, for the most part, want to be compliant with the law seem to be the ones the law least wants to own guns.

To answer your original question more carefully, no, the restriction does not just apply to carrying large capacity firearms (aka, large capacity handguns). The restriction also applies to carrying non-large capacity firearms.

While this part of the law is restrictive in terms of carry, that restriction of "sporting" on your LTC does not, in any way, restrict what you can own. It just means you can't carry them loaded and concealed. That is still, of course, but cold comfort...

 

[RFWAVELENGTH]

Massachusetts doesn't allow a sidearm when hunting, and handgun hunting is extremely limited, and even then I think you need to openly carry, so it's not really an issue. Of course, those are hunting regulations, so probably just a fine from an EPO (or lose your hunting license), as long as you have the LTC.

However, I'm kind of shocked that, at least in theory, an LTC-A with restriction can actually be MORE restrictive in some ways than an FID. Because they can't put restrictions on an FID, right? And they can't deem anyone unsuitable for an FID, except by statute. That means the laws are even more messed up than I thought!

The EPO can arrest you on the spot for hunting violations. Your vehicle and everything that you brought with you can be seized if you are charged with certain hunting violations, such as poaching. MA has archery, muzzleloader and shotgun deer seasons and you cannot carry a rifle or handgun at all during these seasons while hunting. Revolvers (not semiautos) chambered for caliber .357 Magnum or .40 caliber or larger can be used if you have a bear permit during bear season in certain zones. When you obtain a hunting license, a copy of the Mass Wildlife hunting regulations detail these zones, along with other regulations. The reasons that you stated are the same reasons that I opted for an FID instead of a LTC.

 

[gunthebest]

i have class A with "sporting" restriction too. i think the reason the PD put restriction on class A is because they want to limit concealed carry no doubt or otherwise they would have issued u a regular class A. talk to your PD to see what they say, i think you would have to fill out a renewal form for class A with none restriction. cost you money and some time, im doing it too, i know this sucks but what can we do?

 

[Len-2A Training]

i have class A with "sporting" restriction too. i think the reason the PD put restriction on class A is because they want to limit concealed carry no doubt or otherwise they would have issued u a regular class A. talk to your PD to see what they say, i think you would have to fill out a renewal form for class A with none restriction. cost you money and some time, im doing it too, i know this sucks but what can we do?

Right, they don't want you to CCW.

WRONG, you don't have to fill out any forms or pay again to get a restricted LTC-A changed to LTC-A no restrictions. Any PD that does otherwise (charges you) is ripping you off . . . not to say that some won't do that. It's simple computer mod by them in MIRCS and FRB generates a new LTC with changed restrictions on it.

 

[boscru]

as i read the law, i believe those of you who say concealed carry without unrestricetd ltc-a is illegal----however i have been approved for upgrade to unrestricted since feb 1st

now 12 weeks waiting for new card---so im technically legal to ccw----but so scared
of losing the privelege to own and use a firearm in the peoples republic im not ccw'ing

at least i wont tell you if i am and no-one will know

 

[waltherlover]

as i read the law, i believe those of you who say concealed carry without unrestricetd ltc-a is illegal----however i have been approved for upgrade to unrestricted since feb 1st

now 12 weeks waiting for new card---so im technically legal to ccw----but so scared
of losing the privelege to own and use a firearm in the peoples republic im not ccw'ing

at least i wont tell you if i am and no-one will know

I wouldn't even consider CCW unless I had the unrestricted LTC in hand. The state is just too screwed up to play that game. Your risk is revocation and never getting another LTC. 12 weeks is a long time, though. I'd politely harass your local PD.

 

[drgrant]

as i read the law, i believe those of you who say concealed carry without unrestricetd ltc-a is illegal----however i have been approved for upgrade to unrestricted since feb 1st

now 12 weeks waiting for new card---so im technically legal to ccw----but so scared
of losing the privelege to own and use a firearm in the peoples republic im not ccw'ing

at least i wont tell you if i am and no-one will know

If the issuing authority says you are unrestricted you are unrestricted- period end.... because they are the people who would be causing problems for you if you were "caught" carrying against the restriction. It's not a typical legal problem its an administrative one operated by the PD.

-Mike

 

[ColdDayInHell]

If the issuing authority says you are unrestricted you are unrestricted- period end.... because they are the people who would be causing problems for you if you were "caught" carrying against the restriction. It's not a typical legal problem its an administrative one operated by the PD.

-Mike

+1

So depressing that a restricted license even exists.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

There are two separate issues:

1. What is a clear enough violation of the restriction in order to sustain a finding of responsibility for the civil violation of carry outside of restriction if issuance, MGL Ch 140s131(a)

2. What is sufficient for the issuing PD to revoke the license, and have said revocation upheld by the courts?

The bar for #1 is fairly high, assuming that you can afford competent legal counsel. And, if you are fighting #1, you will be doing so as a former LTC holder. The bar for #2 is VERY low as the issuing authority is for all practices judge, jury and executioner when it comes to license revocation.

As a practical matter, #1 probably won't even happen. Violate the restriction, as it is understood by the licensing authority, and the LTC is gone.

All cute games instructors tell you to play like "keep a couple of targets in your car and maintain a membership at a 24x7 range" really demonstrate is that the instructor is not well grounded in how things really work in MA.

Ask yourself a simple question - is a licensing official that refused to issue you an unrestricted LTC-A likely to buy in to logic like "range only includes concealed loaded carry on the way to the range?".