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SCREWED?

CHUCK M

CHUCK M

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I applied for my LTC A three weeks ago and don't know if I blew my chances of getting it. About 8 or 9 years ago I got in a fight and cops ended up pressing charges on the other kid so I wasn't the defendant so I answered no to the question. What just occured to me was that his mother had filed a complaint on me,never arrested or anything just showed up to court for it and met with the cleck mag. He ruled in my favor and nothing came of it.so basically I am just wondering if this is going to block me from getting my LTC?
 
You weren't actually arrested ,you were called to court and it was cleared and it was 8 years ago. Honest mistake in not putting it down but you should be fine. It shouldn't even matter if you were arrested or appeared in court just convictions should be asked for... F*cking state!!
 
I'd say that it depends on the PD's attitude. I'm not sure if the condition that you describe (Clerk Magistrate) is the same and "appearing as a defendant", but since it's possible that it will show up (even though there was no formal "arrest"), calling the LO, and saying, "I think I may have ansered a aquestion wrong...."

SInce you never saw a judge, from a layman's point of view, there was no "appearing as a defendant", you could say..... Whether they'll bust b@lls or not is another thing. But if it's gonna show on the computer, then acting like you were trying to hide it is a bad policy

Call GOAL - they can give you boots-on-the-ground intel....
 
It sounds like you were the subject of what is called a "Show Cause" hearing. These hearings, usually before a clerk-magistrate, are used to determine whether any complaint will even issue against you. It sounds like no complaint was ever issued, hence no formal charges and you were never a defendant.

ETA: It should not matter to the licensing officer, but you may want to run this past a firearms attorney for a sure answer.
 
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MisterHappy said:
I'd say that it depends on the PD's attitude. I'm not sure if the condition that you describe (Clerk Magistrate) is the same and "appearing as a defendant", but since it's possible that it will show up (even though there was no formal "arrest"), calling the LO, and saying, "I think I may have ansered a aquestion wrong...."

SInce you never saw a judge, from a layman's point of view, there was no "appearing as a defendant", you could say..... Whether they'll bust b@lls or not is another thing. But if it's gonna show on the computer, then acting like you were trying to hide it is a bad policy
Click to expand...

When I worked for the PD, we were told that we had the option of "summoning to court" instead of "arrest" in most cases. Magistrates conduct business in the same courthouse that judges do, have the power to assess penalties, etc. From the point of view of a "record" anything a magistrate will handle will show up just the same as the actions of a judge. I know a friend who was charged with A&B with allegations that he drove a piece of construction equipment towards a neighbor (who it was alleged jumped out in the road in front of said slow moving construction equipment) and the entire case was heard by a magistrate and resulted in a CWOF.


n1oty said:
It sounds like you were the subject of what is called a "Show Cause" hearing. These hearings, usually before a clerk-magistrate, are used to determine whether any complaint will even issue against you. It sounds like no complaint was ever issued, hence no formal charges and you were never a defendant.
Click to expand...

From a purely legal point of view (IANAL) you may be right, but it is always safer to provide too much info rather than too little in cases like this. It is likely that a record of a court appearance will show up on his BOP, and if not reported could go poorly for him.

If it were me, I'd contact the LO immediately and offer that additional info with an apology. I doubt that would hurt his application and if the magistrate issued no complaint I can't imagine that being held against him.
 
Thanks for all the input I emailed the LO.couldn't get a hold of him but explained my story.hope all goes ok I will update hopefully with positive news.
 
n1oty said:
It sounds like you were the subject of what is called a "Show Cause" hearing. These hearings, usually before a clerk-magistrate, are used to determine whether any complaint will even issue against you. It sounds like no complaint was ever issued, hence no formal charges and you were never a defendant.

ETA: It should not matter to the licensing officer, but you may want to run this past a firearms attorney for a sure answer.
Click to expand...
+1

I was in a show-cause hearing about a (harassing) 209a during my divorce and no "cause" was found... Didn't in any way interfere with getting my LTC-A, no restrictions... Though this was in my green town, and I did note it on my application because I had to explain the BS 209a from 7 years prior.
 
Smash05 said:
Wouldn't appear on a BOP, if he won at the magistrate's hearing, no PC.
Click to expand...

This. Entries on CORI's and BOP's (the unadulterated record the police get) attach upon arraignment. There has to be charges issued upon a finding of probable cause either as the result of a police officers arrest, a show cause hearing before a magistrate for a minor crime, or a grand jury indictment for a major crime in superior court. If the magistrate dismissed the charges finding no PC, you have no record. There's likely no police record indicating charges were sought if a citizen filed the complaint.

It seems to me your course of action should largely depend on the general attitude of you licensing authority, which is why talking to a firearms attorney may be beneficial.
 
OfficerObie59 said:
This. Entries on CORI's and BOP's (the unadulterated record the police get) attach upon arraignment. There has to be charges issued upon a finding of probable cause either as the result of a police officers arrest, a show cause hearing before a magistrate for a minor crime, or a grand jury indictment for a major crime in superior court. If the magistrate dismissed the charges finding no PC, you have no record. There's likely no police record indicating charges were sought if a citizen filed the complaint.

It seems to me your course of action should largely depend on the general attitude of you licensing authority, which is why talking to a firearms attorney may be beneficial.
Click to expand...

Thanks as always for sharing your insights, OfficerObie! I was just pulling some reference information from my copy of my MA LTC application and was reminded that my LEO (nice guy, btw) changed one of the answers on my handwritten form from N to Y for the online submission. Namely "... appeared in any court as a defendent for any criminal offense (excluding non-criminal traffic offenses)"

I recall discussing this with him during the interview as he entered it... as I've mentioned in this forum previously, I once had a harassing 209a against me (and dismissed early) during my divorce. Before I'd managed to get it dismissed, I realized that my soon-to-be-ex had taken my personal cell phone (I usually just use my business phone) and was vindictively running up the bill by calling randomly all over the world, so I had service to the phone suspended. She reported this to her local PD as a violation of the 209a and I was summonsed to a show-cause hearing in front of a judge (or magistrate?), where no "cause" was found and the claim/charge was dismissed (with a gratifying lecture from the judge to her, I might add).

My LTC LEO considered that a "yes" for the purposes of the application. I assume because he ran an inquiry and it came up as such?? Anyway, I did get my unrestricted LTC-A in our green town, but I just wanted to pass along that warning that if you were ever summonsed to a "show cause hearing", you should probably answer that question in the affirmative.

IANAL, YMMV.
 
30Mauser said:
... as I've mentioned in this forum previously, I once had a harassing 209a against me (and dismissed early) during my divorce. Before I'd managed to get it dismissed, I realized that my soon-to-be-ex had taken my personal cell phone (I usually just use my business phone) and was vindictively running up the bill by calling randomly all over the world, so I had service to the phone suspended. She reported this to her local PD as a violation of the 209a and I was summonsed to a show-cause hearing in front of a judge (or magistrate?), where no "cause" was found and the claim/charge was dismissed (with a gratifying lecture from the judge to her, I might add).
Click to expand...
I must admit, that is definately one of the more creative ways I've seen of a 209A plaintiff baiting a defendant into a potential violation.

I'm glad everything worked out for you.
 
He must have. Since even if he didn't change anything, he didn't lie.

the app asks "Have you ever appeared in any court as a defendant for any criminal offense."

he could truthfully answer NO to that question, based on the info provided so far by the Op.

But then again, this is MA
 
I believe that if you are summonsed to court for a magistrates hearing, and no probable cause is found, the answer to question 10 should be no. I agree with the LEOs on this thread that no checks of your record would pull this up. However, if the chief for some reason knew about the incident such as if you are in a very small town, then he may think you should have answered it yes. And that could be a problem. Furthermore if that were the case then suitability might be an issue as well.

Do not rely on this information without a personal consultation with an attorney.
 
Jesse C. Cohen said:
....if the chief for some reason knew about the incident such as if you are in a very small town, then he may think you should have answered it yes. And that could be a problem. Furthermore if that were the case then suitability might be an issue as well.

Do not rely on this information without a personal consultation with an attorney.
Click to expand...


Welcome to MA. It appears that suitability allows them to deny or revoke for almost any reason you could imagine.
 
Jesse - what recourse does someone have if denied? What are the next steps of escalation. I seem to recall there was some kind of review board, then I'd assume you could take it to court.

Don

p.s. In CT, the CT BFPE is very even handed. (Its made up from members of the community, firearms business, law enforcement and legal profession)
I've heard that whatever the board is in MA, tends to just support the issuing authority.
 
dcmdon said:
Jesse - what recourse does someone have if denied? What are the next steps of escalation. I seem to recall there was some kind of review board, then I'd assume you could take it to court.

Don

p.s. In CT, the CT BFPE is very even handed. (Its made up from members of the community, firearms business, law enforcement and legal profession)
I've heard that whatever the board is in MA, tends to just support the issuing authority.
Click to expand...

In MA, the options are:

1. Convince the issuing authority to reconsider denial. Jesse has been known to handle such negotations, sometimes with success.

2. File an appeal in district court. There will be a fair an impartial hearing at which the judgement of a dedicated public safety professional is balanced against that of a scumbag citizen who wants a gun the professionals don't think he should have, after which the court will usually, but not always, deny the appeal.

If represented by counsel, the denial will probably consist of multiple pages of legal reasoning. If going pro-se, it will likely consist of the one line "petitioner's complaint is denied".

If winning matters here, use counsel that specializes in firearms law (Keith Langer and Jesse Cohen come to mind).

But, there are occasional "wins" - it's just that the odds favor the house.
[frown]

3. Bring a federal action. Be prepared to spend a LOT. (the pleadings in the Hightower case run close to a couple of hundred pages).

I've heard that whatever the board is in MA, tends to just support the issuing authority.
Click to expand...
The only "board" in MA is the FLRB (firearms licensing review board) that serves to process petitions for a state level relief from disability for certain minor offenses. The FLRB does not hear "license denial appeals", and does not have the authority to order a department to issue a license.
 
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dcmdon said:
...what recourse does someone have if denied? What are the next steps of escalation. I seem to recall there was some kind of review board, then I'd assume you could take it to court.
Click to expand...

The FLRB can only hear and rule on certain statutory denials...

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/petition-and-instruction-letter.pdf

Suitability based denials are appeal-able to District Court (MGL 140-131(f)).

Historically, the courts have generally sided with the Issuing Authority unless the denial is shown to be "...arbitrary, capricious, or an abuse of discretion." (Shelburne v. Moyer (1983)).
 
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Thank you both.

I just read the pdf that Kevlar linked to re the FLRB and have to play devils advocate.

Lets say you are denied based on a misdemeanor charge. You take it to the FLRB and win.

Whats to prevent the licensing authority from simply denying on suitability at that point?
Is there any way to get the issuing authority to confirm that they will issue if the misdemeanor is taken care of by the FLRB. i.e. see if its even worth petitioning the FLRB before making the effort. If the Issuing Authority is going to just deny again based on suitability, its not worth petitioning the FLRB.

Thoughts?

Don
 
dcmdon said:
Thank you both.

I just read the pdf that Kevlar linked to re the FLRB and have to play devils advocate.

Lets say you are denied based on a misdemeanor charge. You take it to the FLRB and win.

Whats to prevent the licensing authority from simply denying on suitability at that point?
Is there any way to get the issuing authority to confirm that they will issue if the misdemeanor is taken care of by the FLRB. i.e. see if its even worth petitioning the FLRB before making the effort. If the Issuing Authority is going to just deny again based on suitability, its not worth petitioning the FLRB.

Thoughts?

Don
Click to expand...

Chiefs often write letters saying they will issue the license if the board grants relief. I have yet to see a chief deny a license after the board grants relief.
 
fire7785 said:
http://criminal.attorneywdkickham.com/lawyer-attorney-1851240.html

I thought this article would help explain how the process works.
Click to expand...
Very interesting, thanks for posting!

I think this passage isn't entirely accurate, though:

WHAT HAPPENS IF THE CLERK FINDS IN MY FAVOR?If the Clerk finds in your favor, the complaint is dismissed. There will be no formal criminal charges filed against you. You will have no probation records generated in your name, either. From a public records point of view, it is as if the incident never occurred. You are “free and clear.”
Click to expand...

As I noted previously, my firearms licensing LEOs were able to see my show-cause hearing (even though the allegations were dismissed) and considered this as being "charged with violating a 209a". It is most definitely NOT "as if the incident never happened."

Again, I'm in a great town so the current folks who run it gave me my LTC-A no restrictions, but I absolutely HATE the prospect of having to explain the situation at every renewal and wondering if this time it will make a difference...
 

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