Scopes - Expensive or cheap?

[Smiles1014]

I need someone to explain to me why a more expensive scope is worth the money before I sell mine. I am asking because I bought a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2 from LaRue with their mount. I used it on my AR15 and liked it, I am getting some good grouping with it.

Then I got a Ruger 10/22 and decided to buy a cheap to go the scope route on it. So I went to Bass Pro and bought a Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 1.5-4.5x32mm, model 71-1545 for like $80-90, forget the actual price I paid. Just for haha's I mounted it on my AR15. To my surprise, after I zeroed it in, I wasn't getting any worse groupings to speak of than with the Leupold.

WTH!!!!

I have always been a get what you pay for kind of shopper and for the most part it holds true, however, I just don't see it here. What makes the Leupold at more than 10x the cost any better than the Bushnell? I am target shooting. I am not in the desert, in freezing weather, or in any sort of combat environment. Is that the only difference, the ruggedness?

If so, I would recommend anyone that is saving up for an expensive scope to think twice about what you are buying and what are using it for...

Of course, being a newb to scopes, my first one was the Leupold, I may be missing something.

 

[drgrant]

A good scope won't make you group better than a cheap one will.

What it will do, often is have a clearer, better focused image (or one that is easier to focus) may allow more light in, and it will have turrets on it that are easier to get repeat adjustments with. You'll probably also get a better warranty with a more expensive unit.

Just like anything else, there are good value scopes out there and then there is a TON of cheap garbage out there, too.

For example, cheap red dots are terrible, like this cheap 40mm one I picked up somewhere... the damned dot is very "dirty" and has a lot of glare to it, and sometimes has ghosting on the lens.

On the other hand, my Trashco ProPoint on my bowling pin gun, while not a fancy scope, has always had a clean dot on it...

I also had a cheap scope on my .308 savage rifle. That thing was terrible, focusing it was a bitch, and the turrets were not easily repeatable. If I ever build out another .308 bolt rifle I'm not going to hang junk off of it. It probably won't be a $600 scope, either, but it'll be something better than the typical $50-100 gutter trash models out there.

-Mike

 

[Dirtypacman]

Quality of parts and overall quality of the more expensive models is what your paying for, and I must admit a bit of Name Brand markup is happening. I have had luck with both cheaper and more expensive models. I tend to think if it works for its purpose it was a good purchase. I have also been at the range and got to see how dam good some of the more expensive models are for clarity. Does that mean I would drop an extra few hundred dollars - yes if I had the funds.

 

[Eta-Carinae]

Over time there will also be differences zero repeatability and zero hold plus the range of adjustability for zero.

Poorer quality scopes may rattle out of zero under heavy recoil, the wires in the reticle may shift, and inferior optics may have an uncomfortably short eye relief that could cause the bell of the occular to hit the shooter under recoil.

 

[Admin]

The MRT is illuminated, has a BDC in the reticle, and has very little parallax.

 

[Smiles1014]

The MRT is illuminated, has a BDC in the reticle, and has very little parallax.

Forgive me, but, err...BDC in the rectum and parallel to what?

I'm a newbie here, what did you say?

Clearly the Leupold is far beyond my 'scope' of know how...but I will get there...

As far as craftsmanship, holding the two, there is a clear Mercedes and a GM. Even the way the dials feel when turned. No grittiness or roughness in the Leupold as in the Bushnell. So I can concede to that point, and maybe the Leupold will last a lot longer as I have been taking it on and off every time I go to the range (storage necessity).

I guess I have just mislead myself in thinking one has an advantage over the other in precision shooting under the most normal of conditions.

 

[bpm990d]

The internals are probably better on the Leup. Try a box test with both and see which one is more repeatable.

B

 

[JonJ]

Cheap Scopes
Lots of good info.

 

[Lucas McCain]

Forgive me, but, err...BDC in the rectum and parallel to what?

I'm a newbie here, what did you say?

.

BDC is a Bullet Drop Compensator. You set it for different ranges and it mooves the reticle (crosshairs).

Parallax is creaed because the bore of the gun and the centerline of the optics are not coaxial.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Like with many things, you get what you pay for.

A more expensive scope will likely have better springs, better seals, better adjustments, higher quality, coated lenses. Will they make you shoot better? No, they'll help you see what you're aiming at better. More clearly, under lower light conditions and hold a zero better.

I have a Burris Fairfield II 4.5-14x40mm scope with a Ballistiplex reticle on my .308 rifle. It's a nitrogen filled (no moisture) ED coated lens (high light transmission) target/hunting scope and runs $300 - $400 dollars. The reticle has drop "ticks" on the vertile line to approximate bullet drop at 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards.

I like it and find it to be "almost" as good as scopes 2-3x the price, but I will admit, it's not "quite" as good.

The true difference between a cheap scope and a top of the line scope comes at the extremes:
Do the lenses fog up when you take it from a warm, moist house or car into a the cold out-doors?
Is their moisture INSIDE the scope so when it gets cold, the inside of the lenses fog?
Does the point of aim drift with recoil? Rough handling?
Does the point of aim drift with changes in magnification?
How clear is the image? At dusk? At dawn? - A more expensive scope could add 20-30 minutes usable light to either end of the day.
Does it glare when you're pointing near the sun? Is the Bell Threaded for a Sunshade?
Does the point of aim return to zero after adjustments? if you move 20 clicks right then 20 clicks left, does it hold it's zero? Do you make click adjustments for wind or range?

If you're glassing a rifle for 600-1000 yard competition shooting in low light conditions, more expensive will be better.
If you're looking for a scope to hunt deer in New England Woods where you're going to shoot 30-80 yards? A more expensive scope might not buy you much, unless it fogs in the cold.

 

[1903Collector]

What makes the Leupold at more than 10x the cost any better than the Bushnell?


.

Try them at 2 or 3 hundred yards and you"ll see. I think it comes down to usage.

 

[Mike S]

cheap scopes don't stay zeroed, never had one that will, they will make you nuts. Sanity alone is reason enough to spend the extra money.

 

[Smiles1014]

Does the point of aim drift with changes in magnification?

Does the point of aim return to zero after adjustments? if you move 20 clicks right then 20 clicks left, does it hold it's zero? Do you make click adjustments for wind or range?

After I read your post I tested these two factors. I didn't do it at a range, instead I put the scopes in my rifle vice with padded grips and aimed at a pencil mark on the wall about 20 feet away. And you are correct, the Leupold held like a rock when changing magnification and when turning windage 20 clicks right then back I was right dead nuts where I started. Same with elevation. The Bushnell on the other hand seemed to find a new point of aim about a half inch off when changing magnification and a little less than an inch off when adjusting right and back. That was at about 20 feet!

Thank you Lucas for the info, with what you said and a few minutes research I am on way in learning more about these things.

I think it best to hold onto my Leupold a little longer until I get acquainted with scopes in general a bit more so that I can make a more educated decision.

 

[WILDCATT]

scopes

most scopes have japan lenses[glass] the scope companies grind the jap glass.ther are few us scope manufacturers,the ones you think are, are chinese made and some in the phillipiens.low cost scopes will work for hunting.real accuracy demands a well made scope.I have been buying chinese made scopes at low cost they work for me.they were $13.now $20.the tubes are well made and other parts the lens may be lower quality.but usable.if you only use it at on distance it may not matter.

 

[BossHarley]

It is definitely the difference between a Benz and a GM or a Yugo (if you go cheap enough). Is one better - definitely. Will every shooter notice the difference, maybe not. If I had the means I wouldn't own anything but a Leupold, or extremely high end scope (), but of course most of us do not. I have a range of scopes (Burris, Bushnell, Leupold) = each has its place. There is also a huge difference in durability and 'warranty'.
Leupold will take care of any problem you have - period - whenever - whatever. I have an old 4x handgun scope (M4) on a TC contender. I bought the scope used about 15-20 y ago. It was well used prior to my purchase. When the adjustment knobs tightened up after not being used in 2 decades, they said to send it back and they would take care of it - and did - no charge - even covered return shipping to me.

 

[PaulD]

ED coated lens (high light transmission) target/hunting scope and runs $300 - $400 dollars.

Is it ED glass or ED coating? Usually with optics "ED" refers to a type of glass that focuses all colors of light a the same point, avoiding chromatic aberrations. Optical coatings prevent reflections which helps with light transmission.

 

[doobie]

How long do you want it to last? What type of rifle is it going to be on? A High-powered rifle? You'll want a better one if you want the optics to last. A $30 red dot from wally world won't last long with the cycling of say a AR-15...

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

European scopes are very expensive, Zeiss, Swarovski, etc. A big part of that is the labor and their socialist policies like govt mandated lengthy vacations and so on.

Leupold scopes are built in America.

Oriental scopes are often cheaper because the cost of labor is cheaper.

Korea, Thailand, the Phillipines, at least it's honest labor.

With China, you've got to wonder if it's a factory owned by the People's Liberation Army employing prisoners - in other words, built by slave labor.

I won't buy Chinese, myself. Why support your enemies?

I tend to view scopes, like guns themselves, as lifetime investments.

I have a Weaver on my 22, my other scopes are Leupold.

A final comment. Professional Hunters in Africa claim they can always spot the Americans. They're the ones with the thousand dollar rifles with the hundred dollar scopes on them.

Regards
John

 

[FalArAk]

There is no difference between my Schmidt & Bender glass and my Burris glass,I don't know why I bought the S&B to use on my Ruger 10/22.

Re-sale value I guess.

Seriously,if you can't tell the difference in the glass or light gathering capabilities,there is no reason to buy expensive scopes.

Me,I can tell the difference.

 

[PaulD]

Does anyone know of a resource that compares more famous brands of scope? Like Leupold vs. Nikon vs. Swarovski vs. Zeiss vs. Kahles, etc?

 

[Executive]

Does anyone know of a resource that compares more famous brands of scope? Like Leupold vs. Nikon vs. Swarovski vs. Zeiss vs. Kahles, etc?

SWFA.com ???


Chris

 

[Executive]

A major consideration in buying/setting up a scope is longevity. Talk to professional photographers and see what they buy. A good quality lens can last for decades, just like a good scope. Tools are another good analogy. Buy good quality tools and they last a lifetime. Buy cheap ones and they wear out or break rather quickly. YGWYPF.


Chris

 

[TNHunter]

All of the comments about adjustments holding, consistent corrections, etc.. are true. The more expensive scopes will perform better. The biggest thing you are paying for though is the quality of the glass and the glass coatings. The better the glass the higher the resolution and the brighter the image. Higher resolution means a sharper image. The brighter image is critical 1/2 hour before sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset. If you are target shooting at 100-200 yards or so, any moderate priced scope will fill the bill. If you are trying to put a bullet just behind the shoulder of a 10 point 20 minutes before sunrise you will wish you had a high quality scope.
I have an older Nikon from before they made a series of scopes. No Monarch, Buckmasters, etc.. Just a Nikon. I also have a Buckmasters on a different rifle. The Buckmaster is decent but the old one blows every other scope I have looked through away.
Like the others have said. You get what you pay for. All of this is true for binoculars, spotting scopes, camera lenses, etc.. Any type of optics.

 

[seanc]

Just to chime in here.. I had a bsa scope that I thought was really great and had everything. 6-18 pwr, mil dot, lit reticle, spent @ $200.00. All was good until I went to put it on another gun and noticed that the turrets would spin, but nothing would happen. Didn't get a lot of use either.

So, At Cabelas yesterday looking at scopes and after looking at a lot of them, there is a huge difference in clarity and brightness even in the same price range.
I ended up with a cabelas branded bushnell for $179. It was very clear and bright and had enough features to make it interesting.

 

[dedmeat]

it's my experience that nothing less than a burris or leopold should ever be mounted on a big bore hangun. and then most likely with a b square type 3 ring mount. the proper mounting of a scope is just as important as the scope quality on a handgun.i know you werent asking about handgun scopes but i felt like chiming in

 

[TNHunter]

Good mounts and a proper install are critical for any scope to perform well on any type of firearm. Don't skimp on the mounts and make sure the install is plumb and tight. And Locktite everything.

 

[usmcs/s]

uso nightforce ior

 

[wolf223]

Does anyone know of a resource that compares more famous brands of scope? Like Leupold vs. Nikon vs. Swarovski vs. Zeiss vs. Kahles, etc?

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/ - i found this site useful, objected / subjective and overal "real talk" from gun owners. they have a pretty decent review section as well.

SWFA.com ???


Chris

i got linked to http://www.opticstalk.com/ from SWFA.

-seemed to be really biased with brands vs. reviews.

i lurked for a couple days and stopped looking on there. my head was starting to hurt trying to understand.

it also seemed "couch commando-ish" to me as well.

 

[rep308]

cheap scopes don't stay zeroed, never had one that will, they will make you nuts. Sanity alone is reason enough to spend the extra money.

Agreed. I have a buddy who buys expensive guns but cheap scopes. We spent a week hunting banging around the woods. He finally got a shot at the last day and missed at 50 yards. Subsequent testing showed the scope that was zeroed on day 1 was a foot to the left on day 5.

 

[alexshy]

Ebay is one of the best places to buy scopes if you catch it at the right time and make sure you do your homework. When I get the nice glass I usually get it from there.