roccoracer
NES Member
I think I want to put a reflex sight on my HK45. Please share your opinion or experience with doing this. I am looking at a votex or Burris as options.
Thank you
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School me on RMR for pistol.
- Thread starter roccoracer
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It kind of depends on how you want to mount it and what your primary use of the sight will be. If it's just a range toy then Burris would be fine. Based on what I've seen and read the Vortex products hold up pretty decent. If you want something that you know is going to work no matter the abuse then the popular option would be a Trijicon RMR. Now as far as how you want to mount it there are some plate systems you can mount in place of the rear sight. You can also have your slide milled for a specific type of RMR. There are options that mount to a pistol rail with a bracket up the side of the gun as well. For some reason the optics industry didn't standardize on a mounting pattern so if you get your slide milled for a Burris or Vortex and decide to later upgrade to a Trijicon you'll be SOL. The next thing you'll need to decide is dot size. Lots of varying opinions on that topic and it really depends on the distance you'll want to shoot at. Bigger dots are effective at close range but tough to use the further out you go. I'd suggest hopping on YouTube and watching a few review videos. Holosun has released an interesting looking rmr sight but I dont think they're in stock anywhere. The bonus for them is that they mount using the same pattern as a Trijicon RMR...so you can go a little more affordable to start then upgrade easier down the road. Good luck!
allen-1
NES Member
I have a couple of Burris Fastfires that I use on range toys. I've got them on a S&W 1911 .45 and a Ruger GP100 .38/.357. They've worked pretty well, although the battery compartment cap is fine threaded and a btch to get started properly. I had the battery cap pop off when shooting the S&W once. (TIP: slapping the optic doesn't make it come back on when the battery is no longer in the compartment).
I have a Trijicon on one of my G17 Glocks. The slide was milled for it, and I've got NO complaints about it. I had to think a couple times about spending the money because it wasn't cheap, but I'm glad I decided to do it. I actually bought the G17, then bought a second slide milled with the Trijicon installed. The slide/Trijicon was more expensive than the firearm, but it's a really nice setup.
I don't think I'd use the Fastfire on a carry gun, it just doesn't seem "strong" enough. It's fine for my range toys. If I wanted a "carry optic", I'd trust the Trijicon. But, for carry, I like open sights. That's my personal preference/experience. YMMV.
I have no experience with a Vortex.
I have a Trijicon on one of my G17 Glocks. The slide was milled for it, and I've got NO complaints about it. I had to think a couple times about spending the money because it wasn't cheap, but I'm glad I decided to do it. I actually bought the G17, then bought a second slide milled with the Trijicon installed. The slide/Trijicon was more expensive than the firearm, but it's a really nice setup.
I don't think I'd use the Fastfire on a carry gun, it just doesn't seem "strong" enough. It's fine for my range toys. If I wanted a "carry optic", I'd trust the Trijicon. But, for carry, I like open sights. That's my personal preference/experience. YMMV.
I have no experience with a Vortex.
I have a Leupold Deltapoint that I mounted on a Glock 34 MOS. I used it last year for USPSA.
The red dot on a pistol is great for medium to long range shots. My speed and accuracy on those shots increased significantly. However, my speed on close shots went down. You really have to train a LOT with a red dot to be good at close range. The problem is that if you don’t bring the gun up consistently, then the dot won’t be in your field of view — you will be looking at the scope and not see any dot and not have any clue which way to move the pistol to find the dot. That can result in a second or two of searching for the dot. I had more than a couple times on USPSA stages where I was standing there like a dolt, desperately searching for the dot.
I greatly prefer red dot scopes that allow you to change the battery without dismounting the scope. That way you can replace the battery without having to rezero the scope.
For a pistol, 3 MOA is way too small IMO.
Red dots are good for us old folks who have trouble focusing on a front site. But they are bulky, expensive, require batteries, can be finicky, and require a LOT of training.
The red dot on a pistol is great for medium to long range shots. My speed and accuracy on those shots increased significantly. However, my speed on close shots went down. You really have to train a LOT with a red dot to be good at close range. The problem is that if you don’t bring the gun up consistently, then the dot won’t be in your field of view — you will be looking at the scope and not see any dot and not have any clue which way to move the pistol to find the dot. That can result in a second or two of searching for the dot. I had more than a couple times on USPSA stages where I was standing there like a dolt, desperately searching for the dot.
I greatly prefer red dot scopes that allow you to change the battery without dismounting the scope. That way you can replace the battery without having to rezero the scope.
For a pistol, 3 MOA is way too small IMO.
Red dots are good for us old folks who have trouble focusing on a front site. But they are bulky, expensive, require batteries, can be finicky, and require a LOT of training.
I'm not expert but, in a nutshell, 6 MOA will offer faster acquisition at close range. 3 MOA will let you get a little more accurate at distance. As I mentioned above are tons of opinions and info on this topic. I'd suggest watching a few videos and then making a judgement call about what would work best for you. I went with Trijicon's 3.25 MOA dot. It works on the pistol and if I wanted to pull it off and put it on a rifle mount I can do that as well.
Here's one video to watch..
Whiskeywon
NES Member
I have the RMR on a rifle and it runs great. Can't really speak to it with handguns. I have experience on the vortex, delta point pro, and sig Romeo1. I dont much care for the Romeo especially as Sig's default RDS. I love the delta point pro with the rear sight module. I went as far as to buy a second 226 slide since I wasn't going to pay for the Romeo on a legion/nor cut into the slide of one. And had it milled and matched in sig dark grey. I like it as an altenative since as long as you have the module you can align with the front and rear post and the dot just pops into view instantly. Still a very durable product with just every bit of reputation as trijicon.
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I have a Burris with an 8 dot. Shot the crap out of it on a 9mm pistol. Seems to be holding up just fine. Original battery as well. Sometimes I take it out of the safe, and find out I didn't shut it off last time. I'd submit battery life isn't a real big issue.
I've used it with great success on both a 30/30 and 357 lever gun to ring the 100 yard gong and am giving serious consideration to dragging it through the woods on the 30/30 this fall and leaving the scope home.
The Burris mount kits are kind of pricey for what they are, are somewhat "ungainly" when installed, and the slide cut really is the preferred method, but I would suggest trying it with one of the kits, as it is easily reversible if you don't like it . The screws that come with the kit can be a PIA lengthwise. I bought some x-tra long ones from Brownells ( I think they were sold as Leupold ring screws IIRC) and cut them to give full engagement without bottoming out. I think the bag had about 25 in it, so if you end up needing a couple, just give me a shout.
The dot itself isn't 100% sharp and distinct, but it does have precise adjustments, and holds zero rock steady. The auto dimmer is kind of funky. If you draw quickly from concealed its making the adjustment while you're acquiring the dot which can be a little distracting, but truth told I mostly use the manual settings anyways. The dot could perhaps be a little brighter on full blast, but in no way does it wash out, or even become hard to pick up in bright sunlight.
All in all it well worth a couple- three hundred bucks, especially for older eyes.
I've used it with great success on both a 30/30 and 357 lever gun to ring the 100 yard gong and am giving serious consideration to dragging it through the woods on the 30/30 this fall and leaving the scope home.
The Burris mount kits are kind of pricey for what they are, are somewhat "ungainly" when installed, and the slide cut really is the preferred method, but I would suggest trying it with one of the kits, as it is easily reversible if you don't like it . The screws that come with the kit can be a PIA lengthwise. I bought some x-tra long ones from Brownells ( I think they were sold as Leupold ring screws IIRC) and cut them to give full engagement without bottoming out. I think the bag had about 25 in it, so if you end up needing a couple, just give me a shout.
The dot itself isn't 100% sharp and distinct, but it does have precise adjustments, and holds zero rock steady. The auto dimmer is kind of funky. If you draw quickly from concealed its making the adjustment while you're acquiring the dot which can be a little distracting, but truth told I mostly use the manual settings anyways. The dot could perhaps be a little brighter on full blast, but in no way does it wash out, or even become hard to pick up in bright sunlight.
All in all it well worth a couple- three hundred bucks, especially for older eyes.
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AllaSnackbah
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1 MOA type 2 Trijicon RMR.
Also not an expert but I just had to go through this myself. If possible try to shoot both to see what you can see. The common line is faster acquisition vs precision. I thought I liked the 6.5 moa dot out of the two before I got a chance to mess around with them. It wasn't even a contest once I played around, I stuck with the 3.25. Both would have been serviceable but I would have been trying to zero to the top of the dot or something silly with the 6.5. I suppose if you are top of the game at practical shooting stuff it may become an issue, but luckily I don't have to worry about that.
Getting my milled slide back today, a new era of hard target focus begins!
Asaltweapon
NES Member
Interesting topic.
Is anyone using a RMR on a carry gun? I suffer from old age eyes.
Is anyone using a RMR on a carry gun? I suffer from old age eyes.
ChevyGuy91
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I have a few friends that do. I have not trained enough with mine to carry it for real.
I would stay away from the MOS slides. I have one and it mounts the dot higher then a slide cut for them, too high for my liking. Dawson makes sights tall enough to co-witness the MOS height, but they are retard tall.
For a range toy, red dots are fun and can be faster on medium to long range target, but can be slower on close up targets, as M1911 said.
My draw with iron sight guns on close targets is always a tenth faster than a red dot gun.
I think dot brightness is more important than dot size, a dim 6moa is worse than a bright 3. Sometimes the small dots are harder to track because the vibration during recoil is more noticeable.
Not a fan of dot on carry guns. Just like I don't like safeties on carry guns. Why add complexity
My draw with iron sight guns on close targets is always a tenth faster than a red dot gun.
I think dot brightness is more important than dot size, a dim 6moa is worse than a bright 3. Sometimes the small dots are harder to track because the vibration during recoil is more noticeable.
Not a fan of dot on carry guns. Just like I don't like safeties on carry guns. Why add complexity
ChevyGuy91
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3moa is pushing as big of a dot as I would want on a rifle.
It's nothing special. Technically you could put any RMR onto a rifle mount and slap it on. What I mean is that the size of the dot would be suitable to put on top of my 300 Blackout AR Pistol build if I saw fit. I'm not likely to shoot it out to great distances so 3MOA works for me.
ChevyGuy91
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I have a 3moa RMR on my short 300blk gun. I have it rigged with a DBAL I2 for use with NV, so I just wanted something small for daylight use.
AllaSnackbah
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Theres some dudes crushing it in the competition world. Scott Jedlinski is teaching dot gun stuff his results are impressive. I think if guys train with them enough they can be as fast as irons.
I’m sure it can be, but it takes a lot of training to get there, more than most are willing to do.
I've never shot with Scott, but he is in my area. So I had to look up his results and base them off shooter I do shoot with...I will respectfully disagree. Not saying he's not a great shooter...just not crushing it. Can a shooter do very well with a dot up close..absolutely, but they will also do very well with irons. And day after day, the irons will be slightly (tenths) faster on the close stuff.
I have a Burris Fastfire 3. I like it. One of the reasons I chose it over a Trijicon was battery replacement. I don't want to have to remove the RMR to change a battery. Burris has a cap on the top. That's huge IMO.
D
Deleted member 12999
We carry G19s with Vortex Venoms at work. I am our department firearms instructor. Scores went up 20% EASILY with red dots. None of my guys were ever fast, but accuracy is what matters... considering the abysmal skill level prevalent in law enforcement in general.
I personally shoot faster with irons like Supermoto said. Mainly because I know the margin of error with my irons, and tend to break shots earlier. With a red dot you will have a natural tendency to try and wait that extra tenth to try and center it. It's a hard habit to break. At distance though? 25 yards ad out? I'm faster and more accurate with a dot all day long.
I personally shoot faster with irons like Supermoto said. Mainly because I know the margin of error with my irons, and tend to break shots earlier. With a red dot you will have a natural tendency to try and wait that extra tenth to try and center it. It's a hard habit to break. At distance though? 25 yards ad out? I'm faster and more accurate with a dot all day long.
SJan
NES Member
I have noticed this with many shooters, they spend some extra time 'refining the sight picture' instead of pressing the trigger as soon as the dot is on the target.
This conversation deserves its own thread
To the OP question, I have a Vortex venom on a range gun, and I am very pleased with its performance. I know several guys who have the Burris and they are also pleased with it.
