AllaSnackbah
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 8,245
- Likes
- 11,350
Spare yourself the double disappointment.
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
School me on modern Springfield M1A's
- Thread starter timbo
- Start date
Spare yourself the double disappointment.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
Whoa! Few years? I bought mine a while back and it was a 6 month wait. He must be VERY busy nowadays.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2019
- Messages
- 177
- Likes
- 239
some folks feel 7.62x51 for the home (not IN the home, but to keep the zombies further away than 5.56 can), 5.56 for the forays into sheisenville. Think I'm one of them.
I know. Ideally, you could get by with one caliber entirely, for everything, but x51 and x39 are like my children: I love them both equally, and it's so hard to choose just one.
I don't think you can get him to make one anymore. Eric Hollis went over and "apprenticed" under him to learn the trade. He now makes then in Florida. That's who I'd buy from.
Eric Hollis Slings.
Last edited:
I picked up my Ron Brown slings 2-3 yrs ago. Got one on the M1A and another on my bolt gun. It is the best quality sling I've ever used. Very heavy gauge components and thick leather. Feels like quality of bygone era. Took like 2-3 weeks.
If it's a nostalgia thing , and you're looking for an M1A (that's the Springfield Armory designation) - instead of a semi-auto "M14" - then you can go with the Springfield Armory standard issue model, that's the one that's probably closest to original .mil issue in the Springfield Armory lineup.
Pretty much the first rifle I ever bought - besides the Ruger 10/22, was a Springfield Armory M1A with the stainless barrel. I got a good deal on it and just had to have it. I believe in the current lineup it would be called a "Loaded".
If you're looking for a M1A/M14 for the nostalgia value - and you're money limited , there's a bunch of ways you can go IMHO. Lots of options out there - and one of the better discussions on the whole subject I remember was in Boston's Gun Bible - although it might be a bit dated these days. It went over all of the various options out there, especially around the receivers. The Springfield Armory receivers are not forged - there's lots of other options out there now for forged receivers. If you're money limited at the moment - one option you might look into is putting together the parts for a rifle yourself. Get a good forged receiver - a good barrel - and piece out the rest of the parts.
Check out Fred's M14 stocks (Fred is the guy behind the Appleseed shoots): https://www.fredsm14stocks.com/ , if you want to score a real .mil wooden M14 stock... you're not going to get much more nostalgic than that.
As I remember - Boston's Gun Bible had a pretty good detailed discussion about the M14: Amazon product ASIN 1888766069View: https://www.amazon.com/Bostons-Gun-Bible-Boston-Party/dp/1888766069
, he went at it from the aspect of actually USING the rifle though - as a battle rifle. And came to the conclusion that he preferred it over the FAL. I've got a couple of FALs as well - and I'm not sure I agree with him though. For some reason I just gravitate to the FAL more than the M1A. I've taken the M1A to an Appleseed shoot - and that thing beat the hell out of me after 1000 rounds. It was hot and I was sick though - so that might have had something to do with it. I took an AR the next time around.
If you're looking for a rifle in 7.62 for something more than "nostalgia" - and want something you might have to rely on in a SHTF situation - you might want to look at the PTR-91. Found a video recently that went thru the details on the how the HK91 has been upgraded by a number of militaries around the world - and is still in service. Whereas the FAL and the M14 are both pretty much out of service these days. HK91 mags are also DIRT cheap and in very plentifull supply - and are MA legal - and often come with an actual manufacture date stamped right on them. So if you're looking for a 7.62 MA legal SHTF rifle - I think they deserve serious consideration - if for no other reason than the magazine issue. FAL and M14 mags can get pretty spendy and it's hard to find MA legal pre-bans. HK91 mags in pre-ban are dirt cheap and easy peasy to acquire by the dozens.
@timbo , I highly recommend something with a forged receiver. Some of the old SA's were reportedly forged, but for new I'd simply go for something made by Bula Defense 22" Traditional M14 - Bula Defense Systems
I bought a .308 barreled receiver + build kit from them. Some of my parts are USGI- sight if I recall correctly plus some other stuff. Found a beautiful USGI stock from a member here- it had been restored by one of the well known M14 builders. I shoot the piss out of that thing and it's always been reliable plus a tack driver. In your case I'd just buy a finished 'M14' from Bula and you'll be good to go.
100 yard target-
If I remember the discussions and literature I read from probably 15 years ago - some of the earlier Springfield Armory rifles would come thru with forged receivers - back when they were still using up .mil surplus parts to build their rifles. Since a reliable supply of that dried up quite a while ago - SA went to their own receivers - which are not forged.
out of 556, x51, x39 and x35 rifles, 556 and x51 get the most use. I can't even bear to look at my x35 since you cant find 300 BO ammo for less than 2 or 3 bucks a round now and my x39 is like the red headed black sheep of the family, never gets the attention it deserves since when I do shoot it, it's a tack driver - not even for an AK, just in general.
D
Deleted member 67409
My point is this: the people in 2021 who buy M14 clones are generally the same customers as the people who buy M1s and they use both guns for CMP-style or bench shooting. They're usually older and not using these guns for action shooting or with modern accessories such as suppressors, night vision, etc.
They're nostalgia guns.
MA appears to specifically allow the Springfield M1A, but the "Arms Corp of America " (Armscor) M14R, and M14NM are also listed.
It's my belief that this likely means that any of the "M14" clones from places like Fulton and Bula are likely fully legal under the current interpretation of the MA AWB. But the way to really check would be to just ask a dealer or two whether or not they would transfer a semi-auto M14 clone to you.
I don't think that you're ever going to see places like Fulton or Bula listed on the MA AWB list by name - they're just too small to even get attention.
For whatever it's worth - when Healey pulled her stunt in regards to the ARs, places like 4 Seasons really started pushing SA M1As. Which would lead me to believe that FS at least thought the M1A/M14 platform was fully legal. From that perspective Healey's stunt seems a bit stupid if you ask me, because it essentially forced a bunch of people who might have otherwise bought an AR in 5.56, to consider something in 7.62 - which is a "battle rifle" caliber.
Her decision basically forced people to start considering rifles in a more hurty caliber. Doesn't seem like the smart way to go IMHO.
My gun ownership philosophy has been colored by the fact that when I first got involved with owning firearms - I was told to read Boston's Gun Bible all the way thru by one of the guys I took the training class for the MA license with. So I got a copy - and read it thru - probably more like 3 or 4 times. Long story short: that books makes the point that if SHTF goes down you want a BATTLE rifle (something in .30 caliber) - because it turns many things that are cover from .22 rounds ...... .into concealment. It also makes the point that if things really go sideways - you want firearms that can be fed with battlefield pickup ammo. That means calibers the government uses.
Using that general philosophy - I got rid of everything I had in .40 a few years back when I noticed that it was getting less and less popular.
Your point about black tip is a very good one. AP turns even large trees into "concealment" instead of cover. And the 30.06 is the only legal way to shoot it from what I remember. The stuff is still out there - although it's getting rare.
Your response to Stockwell is a good one, because it seems there's a lot of people out there these days who have fallen way too far down the hobby gun ownership rathole - and have forgotten the basics. There are still people out there who concentrate on those basics - and remember the true reasons WHY gun ownership was protected by the 2nd.
Here's one of them:
Commentary on the Small Kill Team, by SGM S. - American Partisan
The following was a comment left by a retired Sergeant […]
www.americanpartisan.org
Notice what he says about "what calibers to get":
When I’m asked “what calibers should I get,” I reply “who has the most ammo in the US?” Answer: US Military (particularly the Army). And the calibers they use? 5.56mm NATO, 9x19mm, 7.62×51 NATO, 300WM (for sniping), .50BMG. I have read that they have some 6.5 Creedmore, but don’t know that this one is Military Ubiquitous yet. Most of this will be acquired by Battlefield Pickup.
I think the Garand is probably still a pretty effective battle field weapon , especially once you factor in it's ability to shoot AP, the fact that enbloc clips are still readily available and reasonably cheap - and the fact that it could be chambered to shoot 7.62x51 (a battlefield pickup caliber), or could be slightly modified to shoot easily available 30.06 hunting ammo - by putting an adjustable gas system on it.
No ..... they're not just "nostalgia" guns.
If you're considering something in 7.62 as a legitimate "battle" rifle - then the M1A/M14 is a legitimate candidate for consideration. 10-15 years ago - it was pretty much one of your only choices out there. Since then the field has expanded quite a bit - and there are probably better choices I will admit. But in MA - where your choices are restricted and we're heavily populated with dense urban environments - and lots of trees - something in 7.62 is still maybe a better caliber choice than something in a .22 caliber if you think you're going to get into an actual fighting situation.
Again - read what this guy says: Commentary on the Small Kill Team, by SGM S.
Finally, periodically I get the argument “we never get shots beyond 100-200 meters around here.” Yes, many times all you have is closer-in engagement possibilities, but EVERYWHERE (except in the depths of thick forest) there are opportunities for longer-range engagements – one must only look for them. If our, and jihadi, snipers could get 1200 meter shots inside Baghdad and Ramadi, it can be done in American cities, towns, and rural areas.
You're not shooting 1200 meters with something in .22 . And if you think you're going to be fighting in dense forests - well then 7.62 *might* be a better choice there as well. There was lots of debate during the Vietnam era as to whether it was better to have something in .30 caliber and be able to just shoot thru things - or carry more ammo with .22 caliber.
Last time I checked - those debates are STILL going on.
D
Deleted member 67409
(1) OP isn't considering his purchase to be a serious defensive tool.
(2) OP nor I live in Mass, so we don't have the artificial market constraints imposed in Mass.
(3) The market has evolved past M14 clones for the most part for serious use 7.62 NATO rifles. The AR in 7.62 NATO outclasses the M14 clones in pretty much every way.
Last edited by a moderator:
LOL, 1200 meter shots.
bud. 99% of guys aren’t going to be doing anything other than area fire at that range.There are lots of 7.62x51 rifles out there which are more capable in combat. Flat out. The only reason to choose an M1A over modern offerings (or even older offerings like the FAL) is for nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that if you want a range gun, but be honest with yourself.
Also, I really don’t know what that guy’s commentary in your link had to do with SKTs. And the article he commented on was narrowly tailored to one unit’s TTPs on SKTs as if it were universal and absolute. That SGM also talks about needing a 20” barrel to be accurate out to 600 meters with a 5.56. What a joke.
But please, continue to proselytize about the efficacy of these rifles in combat based on your third hand accounts.
I think , or Im going to speculate the more accuracy with 20” barrel is related to the sight radius.LOL, 1200 meter shots.
There are lots of 7.62x51 rifles out there which are more capable in combat. Flat out. The only reason to choose an M1A over modern offerings (or even older offerings like the FAL) is for nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that if you want a range gun, but be honest with yourself.
Also, I really don’t know what that guy’s commentary in your link had to do with SKTs. And the article he commented on was narrowly tailored to one unit’s TTPs on SKTs as if it were universal and absolute. That SGM also talks about needing a 20” barrel to be accurate out to 600 meters with a 5.56. What a joke.
But please, continue to proselytize about the efficacy of these rifles in combat based on your third hand accounts.
Lets face it “battle guns” and “7.62NATO” do not scream accuracy
1903Collector
NES Member
I hate to admit it but the only 30 cal semi auto that ergonomically felt right for me is an AK, AR10 would be second. I had a PTR91 and that had to be the worst, most uncomfortable rifle for me to shoulder (with standard stocks).
See, I love the way my CETME shoulders. Wood stocks, natch; it's how I roll. My issue with it is a mushy safety (which I could fix) and the position of the charging handle (which I can't). But man, that thing points nicely for me.
AllaSnackbah
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 8,245
- Likes
- 11,350
Since when do you need a 308 battle rifle or a 20" 556 gun to hit past 200m?
Ive got a loaded with walnut and a scout with a fiberglass m14 stock i tried forever to make "modern".
They're cool guns, and a blast to shoot in their standard, or really any config, but are outdated and largely irrelevant when compared to, well... modern, .308 battle rifles. As far as modernizing them goes, you can put optics of them but pretty much anything you do will require a cheek riser or a new stock, most of the stocks are pretty lame and/or take away from the classic lines of the gun and turn an already overweight pig into an overweight pig with lipstick on it.
Do i have them? Yup. Do i enjoy shooting them? Yeah, but every round i send downrange with them could be more efficiently used training on my other modern 308 guns. So mine are pretty much serving the "dang that gun looks cool" role every time i reach in the safe and grab my SR25. In all honedty id rather have a FAL if i was going for a true classic 308 BR, they've got much more of a cool service history. The M14 was outdated when it was designed and lived a long drawn out life of being forced into service to meet a demand when there weren't enough M110's to give out to line infantry SDM's.
Disclaimer: i am not responsible for any hurt feels generated by this post.
The platform has its merits. Probably I could cut this group in half with a scope?
As a "battle rifle", does one really need better accuracy? That said, the AR-308 that I built in 6.5 Man Bun will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA and 1/3 MOA with anal retentive reloading and 140 RDF's or ELD's. However, to get that accuracy it's heavy AF too.
M14 gets bad press as a transitional rifle, but if I had to choose one to drag in the mud it would be the M14/M1A over a M110/AR platform. Conditions that would easily jam an AR-type bolt won't bother the M1/M14 bolt. Hell, they will practically go into battery if one of your digits is in the way. How many AR bolts have drawn blood? The answer for M14 bolts is easy- all of them.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
For any type of long distance accuracy work, I'll agree that you can put a lot of lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Though the triggers can be tuned for reasonable improvement, the M1/M14 trigger system can only do so much. There are beaucoup choices for AR triggers, and with a top shelf trigger and barrel/bolt combo the AR will win the accuracy contest every time.
D
Deleted member 67409
Are you speaking from personal experience? Have you conducted mud or debris testing with M14 clones versus ARs?
AllaSnackbah
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 8,245
- Likes
- 11,350
The platform has its merits. Probably I could cut this group in half with a scope?
As a "battle rifle", does one really need better accuracy? That said, the AR-308 that I built in 6.5 Man Bun will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA and 1/3 MOA with anal retentive reloading and 140 RDF's or ELD's. However, to get that accuracy it's heavy AF too.
M14 gets bad press as a transitional rifle, but if I had to choose one to drag in the mud it would be the M14/M1A over a M110/AR platform. Conditions that would easily jam an AR-type bolt won't bother the M1/M14 bolt. Hell, they will practically go into battery if one of your digits is in the way. How many AR bolts have drawn blood? The answer for M14 bolts is easy- all of them.
For any type of long distance accuracy work, I'll agree that you can put a lot of lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Though the triggers can be tuned for reasonable improvement, the M1/M14 trigger system can only do so much. There are beaucoup choices for AR triggers, and with a top shelf trigger and barrel/bolt combo the AR will win the accuracy contest every time.
Im quite sure, positive actually, that M110's have operated in adverse conditions where the M14 failed. The 110 has a dust cover you can close that keeps most shit out of it until you shoot it, the m14 is just open to blowing sand/dust etc. No way, battle rifle to battle rifle, im taking a 14.5" SR25 ACC with a 1-8 scope over an M14 errrrday.
Yeah, the M110/SR25 and other AR10 type rifles are actually difficult to get dirt and mud into the action because of the close tolerances and everything being more of a closed system.
The M1A/M14 is wide open on top for crap to get down into and onto the charging handle channel and all sorts of places. The M14 and Garand generally do pretty poor during mud tests. It doesn’t matter how strong your recoil spring is when you’ve got a bunch of foreign material in the way.
D
Deleted member 67409
Right, open actions are more susceptible to getting debris into the action, stopping the gun. People have known this since at least WW1 or earlier. Arisakas have dust covers for a reason and the British, French, and Germans all developed dust covers to deal with the mud of WW1.
The US military had training videos to tell people to cover the action of a M1 with their hand when they fell to keep mud out - there was obviously a reason for this.
When InRange mud tests ARs, they usually just need to run the charging handle a few times to get it running, like in the POF 308 video. Or sometimes even that isn't necessary.
Experience and firsthand accounts. Interesting videos but they are not going to change my opinion. Of course opinions are like bungholes- everybody has one and they all stink.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Gun Jesus mud crawling aside, I've never had a M1 nor M1A fail to go into battery, even with tight match chambers. Can't say the same for AR's. Carbon fouling and/or little bits of whatever can cause problems with the AR bolt. Reasonable maintenance can prevent that, but if a system is going to be neglected the M1/M1A is more like the AK in terms of handling neglect.
At least soldiers had this helpful cartoon...
Ah, the old s.p.o.r.t.s. method
Similar threads
