SBR's in MA for dummies (me)

Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
3,528
Likes
1,058
Location
Walpole,MA
So I'm thinking of getting my first SBR and have been reading all kinds of threads, some with conflicting answers. I was going to originally build one as an individual, but, the more I look into it, it seems that a trust is the way to go so when I go the item can be "owned/transferred" to another individual. Am I getting that correct?
So far, what I am seeing needed is..
1. A trust, is it really as simple as filling one out online and going for it?
2. Fingerprint cards to send in with my form 1.
3. Item (receiver) needs to be engraved with either the trusts info or individuals info if going that route. The individuals name or trust, town and state?
4. Form 1 needs to be done and sent in. I see I can do that online after getting an account with the ATF, but do I get an individual account or make an account under the trust? And even with an online efile account it seems that I still need to send in hard copies of my fingerprints and anyone else named on the trust? Or are those not needed if going through a trust vs individual?
5. Copies of my LTC and anyone else listed on my trust sent in as well?

What am I missing?

Plan is to make an AR style SBR with a 5.56/.223 upper as well as getting a .22 LR upper to swap around for plinking fun. I've already got a stripped lower that has been sitting in the safe for years just waiting to be built into something. Thinking it's time I made something of it.
 
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,087
Likes
1,569
Location
MetroWest
I never bothered with a trust. There is no one I would name in my trust other than myself, and if I die I don't really care what happens to my guns.
I'm sure there is some other reasons to have one, but none that have affected me. I also operate under the assumption that tagging a gun with a form 1 means its mine for life because transferring it can be very difficult.

Otherwise it seems you have the gist of it down. Fingerprint cards can be finnicky. My local PD has done the for me, no questions asked. E-forms has been quick. But be warned - they can deny you for some simple reasons like spelling mistakes, not following directions, the approver having a bad day, whatever. So be extra extra careful when you fill it all out, read it over 10X.

Once you've got it down its easy and addicting and you'll be a stamp collector in no time!
 

JRT

NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
3,614
Likes
5,322
Location
Philadelphia, PA
There is a lot of answers to questions here, many cover your unique needs in Mass.

In short,
  1. Yes, National Gun Trusts is a great place to start but there are many.
  2. No, fingerprint cards sent with your cover letter. As of last night you can send EFT files instead of actual cards.
  3. Yes
  4. There is only one type of account. You select individual or trust on the eForm 1. There is a different process for each.
  5. No idea if you have to send your LTC, that’s specific to Mass if true. I do not in PA.

 

ScottS

NES Member
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
5,791
Likes
5,781
Location
Live Free or Die
Couple of things to add:

1. If you go the trust route, you'll have to submit fingerprints/photos/RPQs for each trustee. Depending on the number of trustees, herding those cats can be a hassle. By the same token, a trust still has advantages in the long run.
2. I have always rolled my own fingerprints, and have never had a problem. Get a pad from Amazon, free fingerprint cards (get lots) from the ATF Distribution Center, and go nuts.
3. Ensure you eFile your Form 1 vs paper. It will speed the process up tenfold.
4. There are a number of good step-by-step guides available on the net, like this one. Find one and follow it.
5. Be advised: it's call a stamp collection for a reason.
 

LuvDog

NES Member
Rating - 100%
64   0   0
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
8,346
Likes
8,429
I went trust route years ago even though no one else is in my trust. But that was before the law changes and it was an easier route.
I'm glad I did though because I think it still has advantages.

My one piece of advice is to get the lower engraved first before filing the paperwork. That way, if the engraver messes up or the lower gets damaged, you didn't waste $200.
 
Rating - 100%
15   0   0
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
7,407
Likes
4,186
Location
Central Mass
I went trust route years ago even though no one else is in my trust. But that was before the law changes and it was an easier route.
I'm glad I did though because I think it still has advantages.

My one piece of advice is to get the lower engraved first before filing the paperwork. That way, if the engraver messes up or the lower gets damaged, you didn't waste $200.
I've seen this mentioned before. Is it that big a concern? Do engravers mess up that often? Just curious as I haven't built any SBR's yet.
 

Mass-diver

NES Member
Rating - 100%
31   0   0
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
6,063
Likes
1,394
Location
South Shore, MA
As others have mentioned, while there are advantages to a trust, it was used, in the past, largely to avoid the CLEO sign off (which has since gone away).

I think it would very rare for an issue with engraving, but I’m sure anything that can happen has happened
 
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
3,528
Likes
1,058
Location
Walpole,MA
I am thinking the trust route is best for me, my girl has an LTC and a collection of her own guns. So if I go before she does, she can just take ownership easy peazy.
 

LuvDog

NES Member
Rating - 100%
64   0   0
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
8,346
Likes
8,429
I've seen this mentioned before. Is it that big a concern? Do engravers mess up that often? Just curious as I haven't built any SBR's yet.

I wouldn't say it happens a lot, but it has happened. Maybe the engravers fault or maybe the person gave them the wrong info.
And if shipping, there is always the chance of loss or damage.
 

JRT

NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
3,614
Likes
5,322
Location
Philadelphia, PA
I am thinking the trust route is best for me, my girl has an LTC and a collection of her own guns. So if I go before she does, she can just take ownership easy peazy.
How your guns are handled upon your death is definitely solved by a trust. That said, if you name the person in your LW&T that you want your NFA items to go to they are transferred on a Form 5 at no charge.

In my opinion, the biggest benefit to a trust is allowing RPs access to your NFA items. I don't actually put all of my NFA items in a trust but I do ones that I know my kids like to use. Machine guns, a few silencers, and destructive devices, items you want them to use without always having to be there, in "control" of the NFA item.
 
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,087
Likes
1,569
Location
MetroWest
I've seen this mentioned before. Is it that big a concern? Do engravers mess up that often? Just curious as I haven't built any SBR's yet.
Ive never had this issue, but honestly if they goof they can correct it, cross it out, do it some place else. Its annoying, may be ugly, but perfectly fine.
Also - no one has ever once asked me to see paperwork, engraving, stamp so unless you plan on doing something illegal I wouldn't stress.
 

Mass-diver

NES Member
Rating - 100%
31   0   0
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
6,063
Likes
1,394
Location
South Shore, MA
Biggest hiccup is not uploading your MA LTC in the application. Or not finding the fingerprint cover sheet which is kind of hidden (as a pdf) in the atf email after you submit.
 

ReluctantDecoy

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
6,779
Likes
8,699
Location
Cambridge, MA
As others have mentioned, while there are advantages to a trust, it was used, in the past, largely to avoid the CLEO sign off (which has since gone away).

I think it would very rare for an issue with engraving, but I’m sure anything that can happen has happened

I think there's also something to be said about not having your full name and home address engraved on the SBR as well with a trust. I'd feel a lot better about it if I were to ever sell those guns. Even if you undo SBR to sell in open market, your name is still engraved on it. I did mine personally, so I guess I'll never sell those two I SBR'd.

To OP: You might want to check the updated Form 1 rules and reg. I believe they just (like this week) changed fingerprinting rules to allow for digital fingerprint uploads in lieu of paper cards. Just check the very specific file format. About friggin time they got with the digital era.
 

ScottS

NES Member
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
5,791
Likes
5,781
Location
Live Free or Die
Couple of other random thoughts (I guess my brain works in fits and spurts):
1. You're only required to submit prints/photos/RPQs for trustees of the trust at the time of application (and prior to approval) for a Form1/4. In other words, if you submit a trust with only one trustee (you), and then after approval you decide to add your wife/girlfriend to the trust, you're not required to submit prints/photos/RPQ for her until and unless the trust acquires an additional item. This is one way to avoid the "I'm not going through all that shit" objection from trustees.
2. I don't know if it's been solved, but eForms was not very Apple IOS friendly. Lots of cases of people not being able to see attachments when they viewed email on their phones. Just a heads-up.
3. Tar Heel State Firearms does amazing engraving, with fast turn and great prices.
4. I run a CMMG adapter with dedicated 4.5" barrel with a suppressor mounted under the handguard. Runs like a sewing machine, and makes about as much noise. Short of full-auto, it's the most fun you can have with pants on.
 
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
3,528
Likes
1,058
Location
Walpole,MA
I think there's also something to be said about not having your full name and home address engraved on the SBR as well with a trust. I'd feel a lot better about it if I were to ever sell those guns. Even if you undo SBR to sell in open market, your name is still engraved on it. I did mine personally, so I guess I'll never sell those two I SBR'd.

To OP: You might want to check the updated Form 1 rules and reg. I believe they just (like this week) changed fingerprinting rules to allow for digital fingerprint uploads in lieu of paper cards. Just check the very specific file format. About friggin time they got with the digital era.
I have been trying to find out more info into the digital finger print rules and how to obtain them but haven't had any success. I did order 10 cards from the ATF
last night to try and prepare for what I may need. I'm assuming it needs to be an authorized person/company that can provide you with the correct file to send?
 

ReluctantDecoy

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
6,779
Likes
8,699
Location
Cambridge, MA
I have been trying to find out more info into the digital finger print rules and how to obtain them but haven't had any success. I did order 10 cards from the ATF
last night to try and prepare for what I may need. I'm assuming it needs to be an authorized person/company that can provide you with the correct file to send?

Just got an ATF email this morning with the following section on fingerprints:

Form 1 electronic fingerprint card uploads. The electronic fingerprint card file may only be an EFT file. If the Maker uploads electronic fingerprint cards for each Responsible Person named on the application; then the RPs are not required to submit PAPER fingerprint cards with the coversheet.

The only problem now is where can one obtain an EFT file? I'm sure places like SilencerCo could make one, but none in MA.
 
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
3,528
Likes
1,058
Location
Walpole,MA
Just got an ATF email this morning with the following section on fingerprints:



The only problem now is where can one obtain an EFT file? I'm sure places like SilencerCo could make one, but none in MA.
I wonder if the local PD has the means to do this? Or willing to is the more important question.
 

ReluctantDecoy

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
6,779
Likes
8,699
Location
Cambridge, MA
I wonder if the local PD has the means to do this? Or willing to is the more important question.
Heard a rumor that some UPS stores can do digital fingerprints, but have yet to check it myself. ATF seems strict on it having to be this EFT format, so you'd want to double check even if you find a place that does "digital fingerprints".
 

ScottS

NES Member
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
5,791
Likes
5,781
Location
Live Free or Die
Re: digital fingerprints.

1. National Gun Trusts provides this service. Digital fingerprints are captured at a participating UPS Store and then emailed to you. The .EFT file can then be used eForms.
2. PrintScan provides digital fingerprinting. Find locations here. They'll provide the .EFT file on a thumbdrive for $85.
 

bigblue

NES Member
Rating - 100%
38   0   0
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
15,112
Likes
4,772
Re: digital fingerprints.

1. National Gun Trusts provides this service. Digital fingerprints are captured at a participating UPS Store and then emailed to you. The .EFT file can then be used eForms.
2. PrintScan provides digital fingerprinting. Find locations here. They'll provide the .EFT file on a thumbdrive for $85.

Some thoughts as I have a fair bit of experience here and several thousand dollars in federal permission slips:

  • Midwest Silencers will also convert a paper fingerprint card for $50.
  • Also, once you print your own card, scan and save it so you can just print them at will next time. No need to keep rolling prints.
  • Trusts are faster with eForms, period. If there were no other benefit, that's enough. I just got a Form 1 back in under 90 days and I have already had suppressors approved from when eForms began. Check NFA Tracker if you don't believe me.
  • As for engraving before filing, that's 1. silly and 2. only relevant for the first stamp so why even give that advice unless you execute a different trust for each stamp?!?????
 
Last edited:

bigblue

NES Member
Rating - 100%
38   0   0
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
15,112
Likes
4,772
Just got another stamp back today. Trust eForms for form 1's is right at 90 days, a far cry from the 6-12 months for suppressors or what SBR's used to be.
 

CrackPot

NES Member
Rating - 100%
66   0   0
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
4,944
Likes
8,499
Location
Worcester County
I wonder if the local PD has the means to do this? Or willing to is the more important question.
My shop does digital fingerprints. We have a digital fingerprint scanner. $40 gets you fingerprinted and a EFT file.

@Dean Safety at the Mill in Littleton

We also have engraving and other services you likely need.
 

Tartakovsky

NES Member
Rating - 100%
35   0   0
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
1,236
Likes
3,490
Location
NH
Just got an ATF email this morning with the following section on fingerprints:



The only problem now is where can one obtain an EFT file? I'm sure places like SilencerCo could make one, but none in MA.
Printscan locations all over will do EFT file. You can also schedule for Printscan to come to you.
 

Boarder700

NES Member
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Joined
Sep 17, 2013
Messages
679
Likes
831
Location
Finally in NH
The picture on google maps they use the exact same software and hardware that I have...

They charge $65 for the service (vs our $40) assuming you go to one of their locations.
My wife and I were in to see you and get fingerprinted a couple weeks ago. Great experience. Even if the price were the same I would much rather give my money to a good gun shop. But it was cheaper so that’s a no brainer. Even though I had to drive down from NH.
 

Tartakovsky

NES Member
Rating - 100%
35   0   0
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
1,236
Likes
3,490
Location
NH
I’d totally just go to Crackpot if I were closer. Agreed, even if Printscan price were the same. I’d be too tempted to buy guns while there though ;)
 
Top Bottom