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SBR'ing a pre Healy lower

headednorth

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My understanding is ATF wants some sort of documentation that the lower was bought before 7/20. The shop I picked it up at is no longer in business. There was no fa-10 done at the shop and if they gave me a receipt nfw Ill be able to find it. I fa-10'd when it was a completed rifle, but cant seem to find the print out of it. Any way to proceed without inviting the man into my life any more than necessary?
 
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The EFA-10 instructions mention the following about obtaining a copy:
If you exit out of the “Confirmation” page, you cannot access the “Print Transaction” option again. If you fail to print a copy of the transaction and wish to receive a copy, you must submit a “Request for Personal Search” form, available at mass.gov/cjis. Please follow the instructions on the form.

FRB staff cannot provide a copy of the transaction without a completed “Request for Personal Search” form. If you need further assistance, please contact the FRB at [email protected]
 

Glockster30

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The EFA-10 instructions mention the following about obtaining a copy:

Yeah, they make you pay $20 twice; once for the list of guns you own (serial # only), then you need to pay another $20 for the transaction option. Took me a month just to get the list of the former (serial #s). The database should be able to print out all the info for you in press of the button.

You can save $20 if you know the serial numbers that you want the transaction data for when you submit your request by checking off both boxes on the form.
 

headednorth

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Yeah, they make you pay $20 twice; once for the list of guns you own (serial # only), then you need to pay another $20 for the transaction option. Took me a month just to get the list of the former (serial #s). The database should be able to print out all the info for you in press of the button.

You can save $20 if you know the serial numbers that you want the transaction data for when you submit your request by checking off both boxes on the form.
So if I chose list of all transactions it wouldnt give me the dates of the transactions?
 
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So if I chose list of all transactions it wouldnt give me the dates of the transactions?

For a printout of all firearms that were filed with the FRB... nope.
It just gives you your name, DoB, license number, and serial numbers.
That was 2 years ago, I'd be surprised if it's changed since then.
 

Glockster30

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So if I chose list of all transactions it wouldnt give me the dates of the transactions?
For a printout of all firearms that were filed with the FRB... nope.
It just gives you your name, DoB, license number, and serial numbers.
That was 2 years ago, I'd be surprised if it's changed since then.

Correct, it hasn't changed. All you get is what LoginName stated. I just received mine about 2 weeks ago. Now I need to go through all the serial numbers to find out what firearms I need/want the transaction date for in my collection and reapply with the same form, but request the transaction dates for several of the serial numbers. For example, I have 2 AR15 lowers that were purchased maybe 6 years ago that were FA10'd by the LGS, but I didn't keep the receipts because who know Healey would be making up new laws or reinterpret existing laws. I have the same problem with pre-1994 AR15's that I want the transaction date for, as well.
 
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Yeah, they make you pay $20 twice; once for the list of guns you own (serial # only), then you need to pay another $20 for the transaction option. Took me a month just to get the list of the former (serial #s). The database should be able to print out all the info for you in press of the button.

You can save $20 if you know the serial numbers that you want the transaction data for when you submit your request by checking off both boxes on the form.

Good to know. I'll be moving out of state before I try an SBR, but I was curious so I googled for OP.
 
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Correct, it hasn't changed. All you get is what LoginName stated. I just received mine about 2 weeks ago. Now I need to go through all the serial numbers to find out what firearms I need/want the transaction date for in my collection and reapply with the same form, but request the transaction dates for several of the serial numbers. For example, I have 2 AR15 lowers that were purchased maybe 6 years ago that were FA10'd by the LGS, but I didn't keep the receipts because who know Healey would be making up new laws or reinterpret existing laws. I have the same problem with pre-1994 AR15's that I want the transaction date for, as well.

Wait, does this imply that the ATF will not SBR a pre-94 lower without some additional documentation?
 
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If you have the serial number, and it was FA10'ed at time of sale, the dealer can print out a duplicate at no charge.
Wait, does this imply that the ATF will not SBR a pre-94 lower without some additional documentation?
Yes. The BATFE accepts the word of Healy as a God given edict.
 
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I guess I don't understand how the 7/20 enforcement applies to pre-94 rifles though? Isn't 7/20 a reinterpretation of an AWB that specifically exempts those?
 

drgrant

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My understanding is ATF wants some sort of documentation that the lower was bought before 7/20. The shop I picked it up at is no longer in business. There was no fa-10 done at the shop and if they gave me a receipt nfw Ill be able to find it. I fa-10'd when it was a completed rifle, but cant seem to find the print out of it. Any way to proceed without inviting the man into my life any more than necessary?

IMHO doctor up a signed, pre-dated (or when you think you actually did it) FA 10 registration page (shouldn't be that hard to do) and throw it in with the app, done.

I guess I don't understand how the 7/20 enforcement applies to pre-94 rifles though? Isn't 7/20 a reinterpretation of an AWB that specifically exempts those?

It doesn't. Some f***face from the AGs office convinced BATFE that it does, though. So until someone wants to pay for an attorney to potentially unf*** that mess, you'll more or less have to either provide docs or blow some smoke up their ass to make them approve it....

-Mike
 
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It doesn't. Some f***face from the AGs office convinced BATFE that it does, though. So until someone wants to pay for an attorney to potentially unf*** that mess, you'll more or less have to either provide docs or blow some smoke up their ass to make them approve it....

-Mike

I almost forgot where I was for a second, thought I was living in reality.

So for someone who wants to SBR a preban Colt (documented as being in AW configuration prior to 9/13/94) that they bought after 7/20/2016, what exactly is the ATF looking for? Any FA-10 with any MA buyer (not current owner) shown happening prior to 7/20/2016? Does the FRB handle requests like that? For example, can the current owner ask for any records pertaining to a certain serial and potentially get transfers back to original purchase (notwithstanding paper forms being lost or flooded or incinerated)?
 
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I guess I don't understand how the 7/20 enforcement applies to pre-94 rifles though? Isn't 7/20 a reinterpretation of an AWB that specifically exempts those?

Even before all this nonsense, if you planned to submit a form 1 the pre-94 lowers did not have much advantage over pre-7/20 lowers. Since they're requiring evidence of ownership/registration now, then the pre-94 status is almost irrelevant unless you want to hang a chainsaw bayonet on it.
 

matt2491

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What if you just respond to ATF with, "Please specify where in the law a receiver must be pre-7/20?"

I don't see how they can deny your application for not offering proof.
 

headednorth

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Just returned from a LGS where I had a lower transferred a while back. (pre-7/20) Asked for a copy of the 4473 (there was no fa10 done) and was told that wasnt possible. Explained I needed something to attach to an sbr app as it was my understanding that ATF would process if accompanied with pre 7/20 paperwork and I was told that ATF is no longer issuing them in MA regardless of any paperwork. I responded that that was the first I was hearing of this. Another guy said he had a copy of a letter saying that MA considers an SBR to be a pistol (along with those Shockwave shotguns) so ATF wouldnt process the app. I was in no position to argue the point as this took me off guard and for all I know what they were saying was correct. Said the cutoff date was back in Sept, meaning any apps they already had in Sept of '17 they would process, but anything after that people were SOL.

Anyone hear anything regarding this? (Sorry if this was discussed somewhere already.)
 

drgrant

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This is unlikely to get fixed unless someone wants to hire an NFA attorney or you get creative in blowing some smoke up the examiners backside....
 

drgrant

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I almost forgot where I was for a second, thought I was living in reality.

So for someone who wants to SBR a preban Colt (documented as being in AW configuration prior to 9/13/94) that they bought after 7/20/2016, what exactly is the ATF looking for? Any FA-10 with any MA buyer (not current owner) shown happening prior to 7/20/2016? Does the FRB handle requests like that? For example, can the current owner ask for any records pertaining to a certain serial and potentially get transfers back to original purchase (notwithstanding paper forms being lost or flooded or incinerated)?

To answer this CJIS will retrieve FA10s if you fill out a list application and pay the fee... huge pain in the ass though. If it was me I'd resort to other methods, many of which some might not be comfortable with.... lol.
 
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I have a couple non AR's that were purchased post 7/20 (legally of course) that I want to SBR but this whole situation is making me think twice. I really don't want to waste a couple hundred bucks and a few hours of my time just to get told NO.
 
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To answer this CJIS will retrieve FA10s if you fill out a list application and pay the fee... huge pain in the ass though. If it was me I'd resort to other methods, many of which some might not be comfortable with.... lol.
A dealer can reprint an eFA10 if it was originally issued in the days of the online MIRCS system.
 

headednorth

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Just as a follow up to my earlier post, FFL stated he could not provide me a copy of the 4473 I signed because it was a" Federal form." Just out of curiosity I did a search and found an ATF FFL Newsletter stating otherwise. Irrelevant anyway due to Healy f***ery.


"PROVIDING COPIES OF ATF
FORM 4473 AS PART OF
COUPON/REBATE OFFERS
ATF has received numerous inquiries from FFLs
asking whether they may provide copies of the
ATF Form 4473 “Firearms Transaction Record”
to firearms purchasers participating in coupon/
rebate programs. Licensed dealers are required to
record firearms transactions on ATF Form 4473
and retain all records prepared for the sale or
other disposition of firearms as under 27 CFR
178.124 and 27 CFR 178.129, respectively. The
Federal firearms laws do not prohibit an FFL from
providing a
photocopy of the ATF Form 4473 to
the buyer at the buyer’s request.
If you have any
questions about this information, please contact
the Firearms Programs Division at (202) 927-7770."

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/n...s-licensees-newsletter-december-2002/download

Letter is from 2002 so may of changed since then I guess. Also the original question was regarding companies requiring a 4473 copy for a rebate offer, but I would think if its ok for a rebate, it would be ok for an NFA related app.
 

headednorth

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I’m just keeping my sale receipts from the transfers of my lowers, that’s all the proof I think is needed.. There is a SBR thread here somewhere.
Fwiw, he gave me a receipt, although according to him, ATF policy had changed back in Sept of 2017 and regardless of paperwork provided they arent approving any SBR apps submitted after 9/2017. Receipt would let me efa-10 the lower if I chose to , if I were to build it with a 16" barrel. Not really interested in a 16" AR in 9mm so its currently taking up space in the safe until an "Escape From MA" episode occurs.
 

headednorth

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Never Efa10 a lower, don’t believe gun store lawyers, give the SBR a try, what have you to lose ??
I never have, just meant that if I built it into a rifle, the receipt would of allowed me to efa-10 the rifle. Is the fee for the tax stamp refunded if its denied?

eta- apparently fee is refunded if denied.
 
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Another guy said he had a copy of a letter saying that MA considers an SBR to be a pistol (along with those Shockwave shotguns) so ATF wouldnt process the app. I was in no position to argue the point as this took me off guard and for all I know what they were saying was correct. Said the cutoff date was back in Sept, meaning any apps they already had in Sept of '17 they would process, but anything after that people were SOL.

Reading this again, I'm calling shenanigans. This person submitted a form 1 and received a response on his application in under six months? Ha!!!
Anchorman_Idontbelieveyou.gif


Submit your forms and good luck.
 
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Just returned from a LGS where I had a lower transferred a while back. (pre-7/20) Asked for a copy of the 4473 (there was no fa10 done) and was told that wasnt possible. Explained I needed something to attach to an sbr app as it was my understanding that ATF would process if accompanied with pre 7/20 paperwork and I was told that ATF is no longer issuing them in MA regardless of any paperwork. I responded that that was the first I was hearing of this. Another guy said he had a copy of a letter saying that MA considers an SBR to be a pistol (along with those Shockwave shotguns) so ATF wouldnt process the app. I was in no position to argue the point as this took me off guard and for all I know what they were saying was correct. Said the cutoff date was back in Sept, meaning any apps they already had in Sept of '17 they would process, but anything after that people were SOL.

Anyone hear anything regarding this? (Sorry if this was discussed somewhere already.)

That would be an interesting precedent for those that already have an SBR in mass. One could "carry" an SBR loaded and concealed just like any other pistol.
 
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