SBR sequencing - proper steps in MA?

bauer

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Hi all,

I’m In the early stages of considering my first ever SBR with an AR-9 lower I recently acquired and had a question in regards to properly sequencing the build.

Form 1, section 4 asks for barrel length and overall length which cannot be accurately determined/answered until I am in possession of the upper I intend to affix to the build with the requisite muzzle brake permanently attached for MA compliance.

I am aware I cannot of course assemble the rifle into SBR configuration until I have ATF approval and have engraved the lower, but to answer the questions on form 1 accurately, is it ok to acquire the SBR upper prior to approval or would this create concerns over constructive possession or anything similar?

Any help anyone could provide would be appreciated and my apologies in advance if this has been asked before (or ends up being a dumb question).

Thx all!
 

CrackPot

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  1. Acquire Lower
  2. complete Form 1
  3. Wait (20-30 days)
  4. Receive tax stamp
  5. Order upper/parts
  6. Engrave lower
  7. Wait (for parts/upper to arrive)
  8. Assemble
  9. Enjoy

Sure, you may not know the ultimate length when you apply, but that is not critical. give them the best guess at caliber and barrel at the time of applying. What is critical is that you have a tax stamp on that lower/serial-number. You dont have to tell them if you change caliber, length, etc.

Dont acquire the upper w/o a tax stamp or another registered SBR lower that the upper can go on. You dont want constructive possession.
 

bauer

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  1. Acquire Lower
  2. complete Form 1
  3. Wait (20-30 days)
  4. Receive tax stamp
  5. Order upper/parts
  6. Engrave lower
  7. Wait (for parts/upper to arrive)
  8. Assemble
  9. Enjoy

Sure, you may not know the ultimate length when you apply, but that is not critical. give them the best guess at caliber and barrel at the time of applying. What is critical is that you have a tax stamp on that lower/serial-number. You dont have to tell them if you change caliber, length, etc.

Dont acquire the upper w/o a tax stamp or another registered SBR lower that the upper can go on. You dont want constructive possession.

Excellent. Thank you CrackPot. This confirms my suspicions and is exactly what I was looking for. Greatly appreciated!
 

JRT

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  1. Acquire Lower
  2. complete Form 1
  3. Wait (20-30 days)
  4. Receive tax stamp
  5. Order upper/parts
  6. Engrave lower
  7. Wait (for parts/upper to arrive)
  8. Assemble
  9. Enjoy

Sure, you may not know the ultimate length when you apply, but that is not critical. give them the best guess at caliber and barrel at the time of applying. What is critical is that you have a tax stamp on that lower/serial-number. You dont have to tell them if you change caliber, length, etc.

Dont acquire the upper w/o a tax stamp or another registered SBR lower that the upper can go on. You dont want constructive possession.

This is certainly accurate and carries no risk of constructive possession. I have manufactured at least 20 SBRs and I have always had the upper in my possession prior to the stamp. I would just reorder this and say buy your upper and get it engraved during your 30 days and assemble it when the approval email comes. The ATF is not gonna kick your door down and shoot your dog for having a 5 inch barreled upper in your closet. Constructive possession is way over hyped in the NFA world.
 

bauer

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This is certainly accurate and carries no risk of constructive possession. I have manufactured at least 20 SBRs and I have always had the upper in my possession prior to the stamp. I would just reorder this and say buy your upper and get it engraved during your 30 days and assemble it when the approval email comes. The ATF is not gonna kick your door down and shoot your dog for having a 5 inch barreled upper in your closet. Constructive possession is way over hyped in the NFA world.

I do love my dog ;).

I agree the odds of the ATF storming my house are likely low but as this is my first time through the process I’m ok with erring towards the side of caution. I’ll definitely have less concern with builds #2 and beyond after better understanding the process through experience and having an approved SBR in my possession that I could argue any subsequent short barrel uppers were intended for
 

CrackPot

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This is certainly accurate and carries no risk of constructive possession. I have manufactured at least 20 SBRs and I have always had the upper in my possession prior to the stamp. I would just reorder this and say buy your upper and get it engraved during your 30 days and assemble it when the approval email comes. The ATF is not gonna kick your door down and shoot your dog for having a 5 inch barreled upper in your closet. Constructive possession is way over hyped in the NFA world.
You have at least one SBR already so having the upper for #2, #4, #20 etc in hand before engraving the lower is no risk. The upper could always be put on a previous lower.

My ordered list is for SBR #1 when you have no existing approved tax stamp to justify possession of that 10.5" upper.

You are correct that you could choose to do some steps in parallel. Engraving the lower while the Form 1 is out for approval is a fine shortcut. The only risk is that you don't get approved for some reason and now you have a unsellable lower. Then again, the engraving step is not a long one.
 
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Hi all,

I’m In the early stages of considering my first ever SBR with an AR-9 lower I recently acquired and had a question in regards to properly sequencing the build.

Form 1, section 4 asks for barrel length and overall length which cannot be accurately determined/answered until I am in possession of the upper I intend to affix to the build with the requisite muzzle brake permanently attached for MA compliance.

I am aware I cannot of course assemble the rifle into SBR configuration until I have ATF approval and have engraved the lower, but to answer the questions on form 1 accurately, is it ok to acquire the SBR upper prior to approval or would this create concerns over constructive possession or anything similar?

Any help anyone could provide would be appreciated and my apologies in advance if this has been asked before (or ends up being a dumb question).

Thx all!
The ATF is not going to show up at your house if u affix the upper and lower. Do it and send a dowl or cleaning rod down to hit the bolt face and there is your measurement. Just don’t shoot it till u have your stamp. Keep all parts separated while the process is ongoing. Don’t forget engrave it once you are approved. U should be all set. Good luck.
 
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  1. Acquire Lower
  2. complete Form 1
  3. Wait (20-30 days)
  4. Receive tax stamp
  5. Order upper/parts
  6. Engrave lower
  7. Wait (for parts/upper to arrive)
  8. Assemble
  9. Enjoy

Sure, you may not know the ultimate length when you apply, but that is not critical. give them the best guess at caliber and barrel at the time of applying. What is critical is that you have a tax stamp on that lower/serial-number. You dont have to tell them if you change caliber, length, etc.

Dont acquire the upper w/o a tax stamp or another registered SBR lower that the upper can go on. You dont want constructive possession.
Yes, u can always guess, the ATF could care less about SBR forms, they wanna show up in cattle cars, kick the door in, flash bang and clear. After they shoot the dogs of course.
 

andrew1220

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This is certainly accurate and carries no risk of constructive possession. I have manufactured at least 20 SBRs and I have always had the upper in my possession prior to the stamp. I would just reorder this and say buy your upper and get it engraved during your 30 days and assemble it when the approval email comes. The ATF is not gonna kick your door down and shoot your dog for having a 5 inch barreled upper in your closet. Constructive possession is way over hyped in the NFA world.
I'm comfortable in admitting that I did the same. The upper I wanted goes out of stock quickly so I bought it as soon as it came back in stock even though I didn't have the tax stamp yet. I was willing to take the risk but I made sure to keep the upper away from the lower.
 

JRT

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I'm comfortable in admitting that I did the same. The upper I wanted goes out of stock quickly so I bought it as soon as it came back in stock even though I didn't have the tax stamp yet. I was willing to take the risk but I made sure to keep the upper away from the lower.

Yeah, I've built a bunch of unique SBRs where I couldn't claim the upper was for a different lower, I always pre-order. Everybody has different risk levels and that's cool. Constructive possession is wildly exaggerated and many people don't understand what it actually means. Thousands of people build form 1 silencers and hold a titanium pipe and baffles that are often pre clipped that only need to be drilled. This is still not constructive possession yet what else could it possibly be than a can?!?
 

drgrant

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Yeah, I've built a bunch of unique SBRs where I couldn't claim the upper was for a different lower, I always pre-order. Everybody has different risk levels and that's cool. Constructive possession is wildly exaggerated and many people don't understand what it actually means. Thousands of people build form 1 silencers and hold a titanium pipe and baffles that are often pre clipped that only need to be drilled. This is still not constructive possession yet what else could it possibly be than a can?!?
I agree...

Also, these days, if someone has an AR pistol and a regular AR 16" carbine, is the argument going to be that they have a constructively possessed SBR because they could swap the
uppers? [laugh] Most SBR uppers could just as easily be an upper for an AR pistol. Hell in most free states, you could just temporarily attach the upper to a lower configed as a pistol, or just change the brace to a stock at the end of the BS. Or in MA you could go from a fixed mag build pistol and convert to normal when the stamp comes.
 

CrackPot

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I agree with everyone that constructive possession is an often overblown risk. It is still risk so it is worthwhile putting a list together that eliminates/minimizes. Then collapse/reorder/parallelize to your heart's content based on the risk you are willing to take.

I may have seen fully assembled, unengraved SBRs, tax stamp pending at some point... Or maybe not.
 

ScottS

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For what it's worth, my AR9 with an 8.5" barrel measures 27.5" from the tip of the A2-style flash hider to the end of the MOE SL-K stock. You should be able to adjust accordingly.
 

413dan

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anyone used eforms lately? haven't done a form since before 41f or whatever. want to ad something new to my trust just wasn't sure the process now with part online and having to send fingerprints somewhere. TIA!


edit: went over to the form 1 thread and did some reading! found my answers. glad you guys have been having success with your submissions. now to get my ducks in a row, do my paperwork and submit a new form1 or a few lol. ordered fingerprint cards right from the atf too. perfect. Ill do my own, and will go to AAA for a free photo as Im a member.
 
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ScottS

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anyone used eforms lately? haven't done a form since before 41f or whatever. want to ad something new to my trust just wasn't sure the process now with part online and having to send fingerprints somewhere. TIA!


edit: went over to the form 1 thread and did some reading! found my answers. glad you guys have been having success with your submissions. now to get my ducks in a row, do my paperwork and submit a new form1 or a few lol. ordered fingerprint cards right from the atf too. perfect. Ill do my own, and will go to AAA for a free photo as Im a member.

There are passport photo apps for your phone. You're uploading the picture digitally. No reason to have someone else do it.
 

413dan

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There are passport photo apps for your phone. You're uploading the picture digitally. No reason to have someone else do it.
thanks for the tip Scott. I haven't submitted an e form in years. figure they already have my photo from my LTC. glad to get some info first hand from those that have done it recently.
 

dcmdon

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  1. Acquire Lower
  2. complete Form 1
  3. Wait (20-30 days)
  4. Receive tax stamp
  5. Order upper/parts
  6. Engrave lower
  7. Wait (for parts/upper to arrive)
  8. Assemble
  9. Enjoy

Sure, you may not know the ultimate length when you apply, but that is not critical. give them the best guess at caliber and barrel at the time of applying. What is critical is that you have a tax stamp on that lower/serial-number. You dont have to tell them if you change caliber, length, etc.

Dont acquire the upper w/o a tax stamp or another registered SBR lower that the upper can go on. You dont want constructive possession.


This is missing one step. eFA10 it after you assemble it.
 

DarkJoker33

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Super dumb question, and I'm sure its been asked.

So with an sbr lower, you can put just about any upper on it. For what you registered it at.
10 inch register, anything 10+

But once you register a lower at 16, it can never go below that legally.
 

413dan

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Super dumb question, and I'm sure its been asked.

So with an sbr lower, you can put just about any upper on it. For what you registered it at.
10 inch register, anything 10+

But once you register a lower at 16, it can never go below that legally.
not dumb at all. won't go as far to say there's no such thing as a stupid question, because let's face it, there are.

if you register an sbr, say with a 10 inch barrel (chose 10 because you used it in your example) you can put any barrel length on it you want. your form 1 or 4 will state a specific caliber and length, but you can change these, and don't have to inform the NFA when doing so. putting a 16in plus barrel will bring it back into title 2 configuration, and not subject to the nfa laws. anything below 16in on the registered lower is fine. you can even change caliber. my first stamp was for a 11.5 inch 556 sbr. I too have a 5 inch 9mm upper for it. and if I want to take that specific lower out of state, but didn't file a form 5320, I can put a 16inch plus upper on it and travel willy nilly. probably more questions will arise from asking this, and the answer. but that's ok. that's what the forum is for. keep reading, and asking. you'll get there. shit I'm still confused from time to time
 
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