SBR barrel length w/ perm. muzzle brake in MA question

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I searched, but didn't find a clear-cut answer.

My police chief signed my Form 1 yesterday, and the only thing I haven't filled out is the barrel length and the OAL. I am somewhat unclear about what to put for the barrel length (for an AR). I think I want to go with an 11.5, but since I am in MA I need to abide by the AWB, which means I need to permanently attach a muzzle brake[rolleyes]. For box 4e, should the barrel length include the permanently attached muzzle device? Will the ATF think a measurement of 13" is odd, and raise a red flag?

Any MA SBR owners have insight?


Thanks!
 
OAL is not barrel, it's total rifle length. one box is for barrel, one box is for total rifle length. since you legally can't assemble it, a "close enough" guess is a-OK. check google for a factory rifle built with a 11.5" barrel and then you can use the OAL of that.
 
I searched, but didn't find a clear-cut answer.

My police chief signed my Form 1 yesterday, and the only thing I haven't filled out is the barrel length and the OAL. I am somewhat unclear about what to put for the barrel length (for an AR). I think I want to go with an 11.5, but since I am in MA I need to abide by the AWB, which means I need to permanently attach a muzzle brake[rolleyes]. For box 4e, should the barrel length include the permanently attached muzzle device? Will the ATF think a measurement of 13" is odd, and raise a red flag?

Any MA SBR owners have insight?


Thanks!

I've used a pre-BSN lower for my SBR, but I wouldn't sweat either length. Put a common factory OAL and whatever you want for the barrel. Most people believe you can use an upper with any length barrel (I.e. Put a 12.5 on a lower with a 10.5 stamp) with the dea that only need to notify the ATF if that change is permanent.

Get those forms in ASAP, the wait is brutal :( I'm at 8 months plus on my second stamp
 
I've used a pre-BSN lower for my SBR, but I wouldn't sweat either length. Put a common factory OAL and whatever you want for the barrel. Most people believe you can use an upper with any length barrel (I.e. Put a 12.5 on a lower with a 10.5 stamp) with the dea that only need to notify the ATF if that change is permanent.

Get those forms in ASAP, the wait is brutal :( I'm at 8 months plus on my second stamp

If I permanently attach a muzzle device then it would be permanent, no? [wink]


Once you pin and weld the brake on it becomes part of the barrel so include it in your barrel measurement.

I have a 16" rifle with an FSC556, and really like that comp/brake. I will measure the barrel with the bolt closed (dowel down bore method), and subtract 5.5" to get the new length for an 11.5" barrel.



Thanks for the help everyone.
 
Many people believe that the AWB may not apply to SBRs as the law specifically requires a rifle to have a barrel length of 16+ inches to be legally a rifle and therefore have the feature test applicable to it...

Just thought you should hear the argument before pin/welding a break.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2
 
IANAL and there was no case law to the best of my knowledge, but a title II firearm no longer fits the definition of "rifle" legally in MA, therefore the AWB would not apply to a SBR/SBS/etc.

my SBR would not have been "compliant" with the MA AWB if i still lived there when i got my paperwork back. i know several other guys who have the same mindset and believe as to what this law does and does not apply to.

YMMV.
 
It's a gamble... I think you would stand a solid chance of being ok in court... Honestly isn't there a threat around here somewhere about a dude who got arrested for having a compliant rifle... and even after all was said and done he never got his rifle back?

If the 5-0 is gonna **** with you, prepare to be ****ed with, compliant or not. I think having the ATF paperwork in hand will dissuade most shenanigans from taking place.

Mike
 
It's a gamble... I think you would stand a solid chance of being ok in court... Honestly isn't there a threat around here somewhere about a dude who got arrested for having a compliant rifle... and even after all was said and done he never got his rifle back?

Yeah because he bought it in RI, which automatically calls up your PD and rats on you that you bought a rifle because of their stupid wait period garbage.

That's what I would call an extraneous circumstance and "dumb police making waves over nothing".

If it was really illegal they would have prosecuted him. That guy's whole story had lots of holes in it, anyways.

-Mike
 
I'd personally go the route that a few posters suggested; your SBR isn't a rifle, at least not as far as MA law is concerned, so you do not have to follow the AWB guidelines.

However, if that doesn't float your boat, have you considered buying a pre-ban lower? In your situation, the only time I wouldn't want to go this route is if I planned to move out of this state in the near future and didn't want to file a tax stamp on a receiver that will be sold to another resident before moving.
 
If I permanently attach a muzzle device then it would be permanent, no? [wink]



Thanks for the help everyone.

It's a permanent change to the overall configuration of the rifle that you need to report, not a permanent change to an upper. You can own 50 different uppers for your sbr if all different lengths.
 
I think from both a practical and legal standpoint you would be good. But that call is on you. Mass very very very rarely goes after AW stuff anyway. Once the prosecutor saw that you had ATF paperwork, and read the law, I find it unlikely they would continue. I could see them trying to change the law... but honestly I find it unlikely.

I see Pmags and non compliant firearms pretty often. None of these people go to jail. I know plenty of cops, none of them are sticklers for that, and all of them think MA gun laws are terrible. Prosecutors can of course be Nazis... but the law in this case is spelled out pretty clearly. And logic follows that "the 16 inches was purposely to exempt SBRs that require ATF paperwork," even if that is not in fact the case... it makes sense that they would allow an exception for those who go through the NFA process, any reasonable person would by that. Regardless, I doubt we'd ever see a case.

Also, you can have multiple uppers but dont you need to file paperwork if you stray from the original plan? Dont you AT LEAST need the upper that the paperwork corresponds to?

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2
 
I want to thank everyone for their input. After reading the laws, and the SBR FAQ, I have decided to list the barrel length as 11.5.

I have also begun to look into an NFA trust and hope I can pursue one in the very near future. Since I already have the paperwork filled out for a lower, my plan is to get it in the mail on Monday or Tuesday. If I get a trust up and running, I can purchase another lower (or 3) and e-file for a quicker turn around.


Thanks again everybody!
 
Some say better safe than sorry. Again, unlikely this would ever go to court, but who knows. I certainly wouldnt want to be a test case. At the same time, with batfe paperwork in hand I probably wouldn't lose sleep over it either.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2
 
There's no way in hell I would go through all that crap (eg, getting a stamp) to make an SBR in MA and then pin an FH. [puke]

-Mike
 
Question about trusts.

If I get a trust, and submit some Form 1s via e-file, what do I do about submitting a copy of my LTC? Do I scan and upload the file? Is it OK if it's an individual LTC and not a trust LTC?

I know that as an individual I would need to submit a copy, but am unclear about how a trust would go about this. I guess this is one reason someone would hire a lawyer to draft a trust.
 
when i lived in MA and submitted my form 1 with my trust i submitted a copy of my LTC. it is not necessary, but more of a "look, MA says i can own guns, so don't worry about that".
 
Question about trusts.

If I get a trust, and submit some Form 1s via e-file, what do I do about submitting a copy of my LTC? Do I scan and upload the file? Is it OK if it's an individual LTC and not a trust LTC?

I know that as an individual I would need to submit a copy, but am unclear about how a trust would go about this. I guess this is one reason someone would hire a lawyer to draft a trust.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "trust LTC." First I've heard of it if there is.
 
Thanks again atilla!


jasons- sorry, I used poor wording. What I meant to say is, does the ATF care if you submit a form 1 as a trust, but you also send your personal LTC? Or is the LTC even required? I guess if your trust was named "Twisty NFA Trust" and the LTC said "Twisty" all should be kosher. Do all trustees need to send a copy too?


I'm waiting to hear back from a couple lawyers regarding the creation of a trust. guntrustlawyer.com was between 600-750... I'mnot exactly sure what the total would be, because I saw both figures in an email.
 
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Thanks again atilla!


jasons- sorry, I used poor wording. What I meant to say is, does the ATF care if you submit a form 1 as a trust, but you also send your personal LTC? Or is the LTC even required? I guess if your trust was named "Twisty NFA Trust" and the LTC said "Twisty" all should be kosher. Do all trustees need to send a copy too?


I'm waiting to hear back from a couple lawyers regarding the creation of a trust. guntrustlawyer.com was between 600-750... I'mnot exactly sure what the total would be, because I saw both figures in an email.

I don't know. My assumption is that if they do require something, they'd want to see something from a trustee. I'm sure one of the NFA gurus will give you a better answer. You might want to start a new thread since it's a different question than the one in the OP.
 
Thanks again atilla!


jasons- sorry, I used poor wording. What I meant to say is, does the ATF care if you submit a form 1 as a trust, but you also send your personal LTC? Or is the LTC even required? I guess if your trust was named "Twisty NFA Trust" and the LTC said "Twisty" all should be kosher. Do all trustees need to send a copy too?


I'm waiting to hear back from a couple lawyers regarding the creation of a trust. guntrustlawyer.com was between 600-750... I'mnot exactly sure what the total would be, because I saw both figures in an email.

I read somewhere (of course I can't find it now) that if your state requires a license/permit to possess firearms, then it needs to be included with the application. For a trust application, the trustee filing the application needs to include their license/permit.

Worst case scenario, if you don't include your LTC and they do need it, the examiner will contact you requesting a copy. My understanding is that lots of applications are missing things or have small mistakes, so they just give you a chance to correct the mistake rather than rejecting the application outright.
 
Just an update-

I've contacted 2 attorneys in MA and am waiting to hear back about pricing and any other information. I still haven't ruled out guntrust.com, but the difference between $200 for the DIY version and $600 for guntrustlawyer.com isn't that much and could be worth it in the long run.
 
Just an update-

I've contacted 2 attorneys in MA and am waiting to hear back about pricing and any other information. I still haven't ruled out guntrust.com, but the difference between $200 for the DIY version and $600 for guntrustlawyer.com isn't that much and could be worth it in the long run.

guntrustlawyer.com also lets you upgrade later on should you need it. So I don't see much loss in paying for the $200 one now, but IANAL YMMV OMGWTFBBQ.

Also good luck on getting a quote from anybody, the lawyer's office I spoke to wouldn't even give me a non-binding ballpark estimate.
 
I read somewhere (of course I can't find it now) that if your state requires a license/permit to possess firearms, then it needs to be included with the application. For a trust application, the trustee filing the application needs to include their license/permit.

Worst case scenario, if you don't include your LTC and they do need it, the examiner will contact you requesting a copy. My understanding is that lots of applications are missing things or have small mistakes, so they just give you a chance to correct the mistake rather than rejecting the application outright.

You sure about this? It's incorrect.
 
guntrustlawyer.com also lets you upgrade later on should you need it. So I don't see much loss in paying for the $200 one now, but IANAL YMMV OMGWTFBBQ.

Also good luck on getting a quote from anybody, the lawyer's office I spoke to wouldn't even give me a non-binding ballpark estimate.


Do you have a trust? Who did you use?

I got a phone call today from an attorney's office, and they wanted $100 for an initial consult. If after the consult I decided to go ahead with the trust, they would apply the $100 towards the overall cost. Like you, I was unable to get a ball part figure. And they really wanted the initial consult to be in person. I just want to know if they can put a trust together for $600-700, or is it going to be $2000? I can swing $600. $2000, not so much.

I'm not bashing this attorney, but I wish they could have thrown a number at me.
 
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