Sanity check

drgrant

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This is ridiculous. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a straw purchase is when one individual buys a firearm for another individual who is prohibited from legally purchasing one for himself.
Wrong, pls try again. That's only ONE prong of a possible straw. If you really want your head to spin read the Abramski supreme court decision, or just read up on the case. None of the people involved were prohibited. Probably one of the worst decisions since Kelo, for obvious reasons.

-Mike
 
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Wrong, pls try again. That's only ONE prong of a possible straw. If you really want your head to spin read the Abramski supreme court decision, or just read up on the case. None of the people involved were prohibited. Probably one of the worst decisions since Kelo, for obvious reasons.

-Mike
Since when did the definition of a straw purchase change? Or an I just ignorant and I've been wrong this whole time? I could fathom a straw purchase being someone buying a gun solely intended for another person, in that the original buyer bought it with the intent of never owning it himself, but then again, whats to say that you can't buy a firearm for someone. Either way, I'll read up on the case you cited.

OK, I read up on your referenced case. I'll play devils advocate here and say I can "see" where they are coming from, though I don't agree with it. The question "are you the intended buyer" and "Purchasing on behalf of another individual" I think someone sending you a check with "Glock 19" written in the memo line clearly indicates a purchase on behalf of another individual. Now again, I don't agree with it at all and find it a horrible decision, I'm just trying to see all sides here, right or wrong.

In my original response to this thread, I was more indicating that buying a firearm for someone as a gift is not a straw purchase. Either way it was taken, I appreciate your input and I learned something, so win win.
 
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GLOCK-22

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I was in FS one day buying something and there was a couple in there buy a gun each and they both had LTC and both did all the paper work them self and where both approved.

The guy wanted to pay for both and they said no it's a straw sale if they were married it would have been ok by because there not they have to pay for them on there own or the guy could buy a gift certificate and give her the gift certificate to pay for her gun and that was ok to do.

What the he'll is the diffrance cash plastic or paper any which why he was paying for it.

And I have been in place so many time and FS & CG both now me that I have went in paid for guns and had my wife pick them up but any way I guess it's like every thing else in the world it's not what you know it's who you blow I mean know.
 

Dennis in MA

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This is ridiculous. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a straw purchase is when one individual buys a firearm for another individual who is prohibited from legally purchasing one for himself. Such as I'm approached by a guy who says hes a felon but needs a pistol and he'll sweeten the deal by going $100 over if I help him out. I buy the pistol for the guy, take the $100 and we're on our separate ways. THATS a straw purchase.

I've heard so much blasphemy about straw purchases that it makes my head spin, its like people trying to out-do each others idiocy. Can I buy my son a rifle for Christmas? Say I see a gun I cant pass up but I'm a little short on cash. Can I borrow $50 from my buddy who's there with me?
Straw purchase law has nothing to do with the strawee being a PP or not. It's WHY it's written, but nothing that pertains to it. It's anyone buying for someone else. So if I went into my LGS with my son, who let us say has his LTC (he's only 11, so. . . . ). I fill out all of teh paperwork and hand him the gun and he hands me the $ to hand to the LGS owner. Straw purchase.

You could borrow $50. There's no reason you can't borrow a billion dollars. Although FS seemed to be a bit over-reacty on that issue as well above.

Just think - if there were no 4473's and no BG checks, we could eliminate straw purchase laws as well.
 

citoriguy

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I was in FS one day buying something and there was a couple in there buy a gun each and they both had LTC and both did all the paper work them self and where both approved.

The guy wanted to pay for both and they said no it's a straw sale if they were married it would have been ok by because there not they have to pay for them on there own or the guy could buy a gift certificate and give her the gift certificate to pay for her gun and that was ok to do.

What the he'll is the diffrance cash plastic or paper any which why he was paying for it.

And I have been in place so many time and FS & CG both now me that I have went in paid for guns and had my wife pick them up but any way I guess it's like every thing else in the world it's not what you know it's who you blow I mean know.
CYA Syndrome, and I don't blame them, especially if they don't know you that well or at all.
 

drgrant

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Since when did the definition of a straw purchase change? Or an I just ignorant and I've been wrong this whole time? I could fathom a straw purchase being someone buying a gun solely intended for another person, in that the original buyer bought it with the intent of never owning it himself, but then again, whats to say that you can't buy a firearm for someone. Either way, I'll read up on the case you cited.
It's always been that shitty it's just that people aren't aware of it. It's also difficult for most people to get prosecuted for it (especially when it doesn't involve a PP) so it's less commonly brought up in different circles. It would not surprise me nationally if there were less than like 10 indictments in the past 2 decades + based on straws that don't involve PPs. The difference is the average law abiding joe that straws a gun for his otherwise normally law abiding buddy is that when his buddy gets the gun he doesn't go out and commit a crime with it. So a "trigger event" that segues into a
federal indictment is rare as hell to begin with.

In order for someone to get indicted for a straw based on intent, usually the equivalent of "two planes headed towards one another in the middle of the night at 30,000
feet crash into each other" has to happen. [laugh] The back-stories on how
some of these cases came to be is mind numbing.

Straw purchase law has nothing to do with the strawee being a PP or not.
Well, it can in one prong of the law. The "strawing a gun for a person not legally elegible to buy one" is the most obvious one. The part people have a problem with is the law is more expansive than that and covers a wider scope of people as opposed to just prohibited persons.

-Mike
 

Cowgirlup

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I went through the same thing when I took my mom shopping for a gun. She wanted a small revolver that would work with her arthritic hands. The sales person was with us and clearly knew it was for her. When I told him I would buy it as a gift for her he threw out the "Straw Purchase No Deal" rules. He even stated he knew it was for her but couldn't do it. So she put it on her CC and I sent her a check.
 

andrew1220

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Give him a gift card or prepaid visa card to use or cash/check. If you're in the shop discussing this in front of the shop owner/workers, I'm not surprised at all that they didn't allow it to proceed.
 

dwarven1

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Here's one for you. Guy wants a Crickett rifle for his grandson. Gets delayed. "Oh, I'll just have my son buy it for him."

Straw purchase or not? Bear in mind this is a friggin' CRICKETT - kid's single shot .22.

What did I do in that case?
 

Varmint

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Stepson lives in NC. Tweakers just moved in down the street from him. He decided he needs a firearm for his wife to have on hand just in case.

He was out looking, found something they liked (a Smith and Wesson 6906), I said I would pay for it as a gift for their birthdays (3 days apart)

He called me from the shop to tell me the price, and the shop keeper told my stepson that if I gave him money for a firearm it was a straw purchase, even if stepson fills out the paperwork, keeps it for his household, etc. Because it was my money, that makes it a straw purchase.

I am 99% sure the clerk was full of it, but with the alphabet soup agencies making stuff up as they go along, I am just looking for an NES sanity check.

Thanks!
I better inform my employer that because they paid my salary and I used it to buy guns, they committed a felony.
 

Dadstoys

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Walk just a few feet in an FFL's shoes and you'll find it's not a easy as it looks.
It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
F up just once and it's gone , your livelihood , your means of supporting your family , poof , just like that.
IF your lucky and that's all that happens and you don't have to burn through whatever you had saved with no way to replace it on lawyer fees.
The old man and I had someone who we were 99% sure was an agent trying to run a sting on us.
Inquiring about maybe trying to do a purchase "Off the books " .
The response was GTFO.
Best advise is move on a take it as a learning experience of what not to do in a gun store.
 

Reptile

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What's what you say at a gun shop when people can overhear.

I heard a story where people were talking about pot use while waiting on the phone line for NICS.

NICS denied the sale after hearing the conversation and reported the person who is now a PP.

If you have bitcoin, you can always use that.

I used bitcoin to buy a snake on the dark web.

I got a python. It's pretty big.
 

whacko

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Since when did the definition of a straw purchase change? Or an I just ignorant and I've been wrong this whole time? I could fathom a straw purchase being someone buying a gun solely intended for another person, in that the original buyer bought it with the intent of never owning it himself, but then again, whats to say that you can't buy a firearm for someone. Either way, I'll read up on the case you cited.

OK, I read up on your referenced case. I'll play devils advocate here and say I can "see" where they are coming from, though I don't agree with it. The question "are you the intended buyer" and "Purchasing on behalf of another individual" I think someone sending you a check with "Glock 19" written in the memo line clearly indicates a purchase on behalf of another individual. Now again, I don't agree with it at all and find it a horrible decision, I'm just trying to see all sides here, right or wrong.

In my original response to this thread, I was more indicating that buying a firearm for someone as a gift is not a straw purchase. Either way it was taken, I appreciate your input and I learned something, so win win.
One thing that gun buyers have learned over the years is NEVER whip out the cell phone in the middle of a gun purchase. Not even to ask someone their opinion of the gun your planning to buy. Gun shops get very squirly due to straw purchase laws and definitely play it on the safe side.
 
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whacko

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Walk just a few feet in an FFL's shoes and you'll find it's not a easy as it looks.
It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
F up just once and it's gone , your livelihood , your means of supporting your family , poof , just like that.
IF your lucky and that's all that happens and you don't have to burn through whatever you had saved with no way to replace it on lawyer fees.
The old man and I had someone who we were 99% sure was an agent trying to run a sting on us.
Inquiring about maybe trying to do a purchase "Off the books " .
The response was GTFO.
Best advise is move on a take it as a learning experience of what not to do in a gun store.
All good points on being an ffl

Pretty simple for the buyer.....dont talk on the phone in the middle of a gun purchase.
 
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whacko

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I went through the same thing when I took my mom shopping for a gun. She wanted a small revolver that would work with her arthritic hands. The sales person was with us and clearly knew it was for her. When I told him I would buy it as a gift for her he threw out the "Straw Purchase No Deal" rules. He even stated he knew it was for her but couldn't do it. So she put it on her CC and I sent her a check.
So your mom was able to buy the gun right then and there? Just not with your credit card?
 

ToddDubya

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30 years ago I was by myself buying BBs at Kmart and they said my dad had to come into the store, that they couldn't sell them to a kid without a parent there. So I went and got him and they said "No, he has to hand us the money", so I handed my dad the $5 bill and he handed it to the clerk and I left with my carton of BBs. Hope this helps.

Fun fact, they sold real guns at that counter.

Full disclosure: This was in NYS but before the SAFE Act.
 
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I guess I do not know what a straw purchase is. If I as a licensed person buys a gun and transfers that gun to another person who can legally own/posess/purchase it how is that a straw purchase?

It is the same freakin thing if I buy a gun today and a year later do a legal transfer to another licensed person or to one who can legally own/posess/purchase.

I was under the impression that a straw purchase was a licensed person or someone who could legally own/posess/purchase a firearm intentionally buying it for someone who was not legally allowed to own/posess/purchase that firearm.
 

ToddDubya

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I guess I do not know what a straw purchase is. If I as a licensed person buys a gun and transfers that gun to another person who can legally own/posess/purchase it how is that a straw purchase?

It is the same freakin thing if I buy a gun today and a year later do a legal transfer to another licensed person or to one who can legally own/posess/purchase.

I was under the impression that a straw purchase was a licensed person or someone who could legally own/posess/purchase a firearm intentionally buying it for someone who was not legally allowed to own/posess/purchase that firearm.
A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who is not you.

4473 Question 11A:

a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.Exception:If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s)for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)
 

Cowgirlup

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So your mom was able to buy the gun right then and there? Just not with your credit card?
Yes, they let her buy it. The whole thing was hilarious. The forms were on a computer. She has never used one and they wouldn't let me operate the mouse for her either. So I had to talk her through how to use the computer and fill out the form.
 

citoriguy

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So how would you buy a surprise gift for a spouse or significant other, assuming they are properly licensed? Same thing - just “reimburse” them?
 

whacko

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So how would you buy a surprise gift for a spouse or significant other, assuming they are properly licensed? Same thing - just “reimburse” them?
If it's a surprise gift......go alone......keep quiet that the gun is a gift for someone.....buy it with you filling out the forms......then fill out an efa10 later on (for mass residents).

If the person is there at the store......yes.....they buy the gun filling out all the paperwork....and you don't say a word to the clerk about who's paying for it.......the person buys it and you pay them back.

My cousin (nh resident) was refused a purchase at Bass pro in hooksett nh when he picked out a handgun and mentioned casually while filling out the paperwork that his wife was going to be surprised. Clerk said "damnit you shouldn't have said that" and told him no sale.
 
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fshalor

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Since when did the definition of a straw purchase change? Or an I just ignorant and I've been wrong this whole time? I could fathom a straw purchase being someone buying a gun solely intended for another person, in that the original buyer bought it with the intent of never owning it himself, but then again, whats to say that you can't buy a firearm for someone. Either way, I'll read up on the case you cited.

OK, I read up on your referenced case. I'll play devils advocate here and say I can "see" where they are coming from, though I don't agree with it. The question "are you the intended buyer" and "Purchasing on behalf of another individual" I think someone sending you a check with "Glock 19" written in the memo line clearly indicates a purchase on behalf of another individual. Now again, I don't agree with it at all and find it a horrible decision, I'm just trying to see all sides here, right or wrong.

In my original response to this thread, I was more indicating that buying a firearm for someone as a gift is not a straw purchase. Either way it was taken, I appreciate your input and I learned something, so win win.
My straw sniff test is probably in line with the Docs.

Good purchase == person with money comes into store. Person with money selects firearm (or rifle for you MA wackos). Person with money who has selected firearm fills out form, passes NICS and purchases firearm. Leaves store without money and with firearm.

Bad Purchase == any variation on the above with respect to selection, money, form fillout, background check, or leaving of the store with the arm.

I would not engage in any other purchase on an FFLs books other than the above first buy flow. Heck I wouldn't even go in the store with a second body of any sort for any reason. I wouldn't even do a transfer fee at an FFL and do anything other than following the flow of select, fill out, pass, pay.

If you can't figure out how to do (A) above, you run the risk of someone getting a clothing items in a twist.
 

Squib308

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1) the 3rd gen S&W's are some of the finest american made autoloading pistols ever built. so long as condition is good I would not hesitate to purchase an use a 6906. unfortunately I have heard that S&W will no longer service their older autoloading pistols which (if true) is a damn shame.

2) money moves around in a family all the time. it's your own error disclosing private financial info that inadvertently set off their straw purchase alarms. don't blame the shop. learn the lesson and move along.
 
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