Same town continues to screw with gun owners

[MALDENQB02]

I posted a few days ago about a gun owner getting his license revoked for failure to change his address. This same town has now suspended a fellow constable's LTC.

As you know, I'm a constable. So the scenario played out the same way as last time... I get a phone call asking about costs. I quoted this gentleman for the service and followed up with who he needed to be served. He replied the city of ******* CoP.

I asked him him if it was firearm related. Of course he said yes and again I immediately said there was no charge for my service. He actually works for said town's DPW full time, and he's a constable part time like me.

He he was in a neighboring town doing a service as a constable. Acting in full capacity of a "LEO." After getting no answer at the door, he sat in his truck and was making a few phone calls. 15 minutes may have passed because he is working. A nosey neighbor called the police for a "suspicious vehicle."

police come, ask him for L&R. He realizes he forgot his wallet at home which obviously had his LTC. When the police asked if there were any weapons, he said yes. Police officer ran his information, CONFIRMED his LTC was valid.

They STILL confiscated his forearm and said it was procedure. The PO told him to contact his issuing town's license officer to receive his pistol back. When he contacted his hometown PD, they notified him his license will be suspended for 6 months and he had to bring his handguns to the station within 24 hours or put them on consignment/sell them and bring paperwork for verification.

When he questioned the licensing officer why his license was being suspended, he was told "you are not suitable to carry a firearm"

WOW.

Thankfully he he has free lawyer service through his union at the DPW. he is bringing the chief to court. 2nd complaint in the matter of days.

This should be interesting.


A few caveats: I Will Not say the name of the issuing town nor the neighboring town. I don't want them messing with my license.

Opinions?

 

[GPP]

Realized he forgot his wallet at home while acting in a full capacity as an LEO in a neighboring town.
Cmon dude.
And a nosey neighbor called the cops?
Free lawyer service thru his union? Even tho he was in a neighboring town working a second job. In a different town.

 

[Christian]

What would happen to someone who wasn't a LEO and got nabbed carrying without an LTC, there's your answer.

 

[GPP]

What would happen to someone who wasn't a LEO and got nabbed carrying without an LTC, there's your answer.

LEO in MA does not need an LTC to carry.
Try again.

 

[namedpipes]

LEO in MA does not need an LTC to carry...

Does not need an LTC to carry while on the job, I believe.

Still, the sniffdar is chiming on the op's op and update.

 

[allen-1]

Does not need an LTC to carry while on the job, I believe.

Still, the sniffdar is chiming on the op's op and update.

Your avatar seems to be more agitated than usual; is that your "sniffdar"?

 

[garandman]

I Giant wall of text.

A few caveats: I Will Not say the name of the issuing town nor the neighboring town. I don't want them messing with my license.

Opinions?

stop posting.

 

[Christian]

LEO in MA does not need an LTC to carry.
Try again.

Then, by going by the OPs account of things, the constable wouldn't be having this issue correct(providing it happened in Ma.)?

Awhile back the CoP here made an effort to disarm the police when they weren't on duty which didn't go over so well. The only reason it was put to a stop is the union told the town they would sue if the CoP didn't back off, so as to be expected they caved and told the CoP to let it go. It's gotta be nice not having to play by the same set of rules.

 

[frenchman]

They STILL confiscated his forearm and said it was procedure. [/QUOTE] Smart cops. He can't shoot without his forearm.

 

[greencobra]

I would just assume the police would know constables from theirs, as well as surrounding cities and towns, no? Are constables LEO'S when on the job?

 

[falcon123]

They STILL confiscated his forearm and said it was procedure. [/QUOTE] Smart cops. He can't shoot without his forearm.

It depends which forearm they confiscated.

 

[MALDENQB02]

Sorry. Everything I said is a regurgitation of the police report this guy gave me. He also told me the only identification he had at the time was a business card. The police officer who made the stop called his hometown where they confirmed he was a constable.

 

[MALDENQB02]

LEO in MA does not need an LTC to carry.
Try again.

you do need an LTC as a constable. Our city says the job can be done without carrying a firearm.

 

[Palladin]

 

[namedpipes]

Sorry. Everything I said is a regurgitation of the police report this guy gave me. He also told me the only identification he had at the time was a business card. The police officer who made the stop called his hometown where they confirmed he was a constable.

Is it standard procedure for process servers to chit-chat in public about cases they handle? If you have a worry about the legality of what happened, put the victim in touch with Comm2A and they'll point him toward appropriate representation. You aren't helping anyone by doing this...

you do need an LTC as a constable. Our city says the job can be done without carrying a firearm.

GPP is correct (with the on duty caveat). You are wrong. You're reciting a local policy, not MA law.

 

[terraformer]

We provide free legal services and we are looking for great cases. Have him get in touch with comm2a!!!! Both of them actually. Especially before his free Union lawyer screws it up.

 

[knfmn]

Guy was hanging out looking shady, carrying a gun and had no ID on him at all? I kind of can't blame the cops for this one. I don't agree that we should need any sort of license to possess and carry firearms, but as long as we do, it behooves us to not do something stupid to put it in jeopardy.

 

[ACK495]

I would just assume the police would know constables from theirs, as well as surrounding cities and towns, no? Are constables LEO'S when on the job?

Nope. I have no idea who the Constable is around me or what they hell they do. But I wouldn't confiscate his gun once I established who he was and was "on the job". He must have been a jerk.

 

[StevieP]

Do constables have "client/constable privelege?"

Should we on NES be privy to any of this ostensibly private information?

Should the OP even be discussing this on an open forum?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

We provide free legal services and we are looking for great cases. Have him get in touch with comm2a!!!! Both of them actually. Especially before his free Union lawyer screws it up.

Constables are independent contractors, and therefore, are not generally members of a union. If they qualify for MPA (Mass Police Assn) membership, that might get them some representation - although that is iffy since an LTC suspension is not an employment issue.

It is important to contact Comm2a. The law now says that the standard for denial/suspension/revocation is evidence of a danger to public safety (although it is still a "preponderance of the evidence" rather than "reasonable doubt" standard" - i.e., low). If a case is poorly framed, we could get a precedent that states that the standard remains "any reason" rather than "danger to public safety". (Note how the SJC said that although you have a 2A right, that 2A right does not give you a right to the LTC needed to exercise said right).

If Comm2A is interested, there is a decent chance this person could end up with first rate representation at no cost.

As to suspicious characters - happened to a friend parked in front of my house waiting to get home. The first words the cop who responded said were "Erich - we got a call about a suspicious character at this address - see any?".

 

[mark056]

Nope. I have no idea who the Constable is around me or what they hell they do. But I wouldn't confiscate his gun once I established who he was and was "on the job". He must have been a jerk.

Constables are police officers of the civil courts but most police officers are totally clueless as to who they are and what they do. Lots of times though constables can bring some stuff on themselves. I had a run in with one who was holding up and actually blocking traffic one Saturday morning in downtown Leominster, tried to insinuate that he was a cop. I told him that I understood what a constable was (thank you Len 2A) I actually had to pull out my civilian MSP ID and explain that I worked in the CJ system, that I knew what a constable was, (at this point he was muttering about how we could "go down to the station and sort all of this out") and he better damn quick move on because there would be a cruiser from Leominster Barracks arriving shortly, no city PD, he skedaddled faster than jackrabbit struck by lighting. (actually all the cruisers were probably out on 190, Rte 2 or having breakfast somewhere) Guy must have been 75 years old.

Now I know that statutorily and historically constables may indeed have full police powers, but nobody has probably put that to the test in decades, and today that might be moot.

 

[kalash]

If Comm2A is interested, there is a decent chance this person could end up with first rate representation at no cost.

Gonna donate to comm2a again when I get home tonight.

 

[LoginName]

We provide free legal services and we are looking for great cases. Have him get in touch with comm2a!!!! Both of them actually. Especially before his free Union lawyer screws it up.

This.

I'm surprised that his union is supplying free legal representation.

That only usually applies if it involves something directly related to ones union job and/or while performing ones
duties, or if the employer violated some part of the contract.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Lots of times though constables can bring some stuff on themselves.

A case a now deceased parole officer told me of a constable who brought a suspect to the police station in the trunk of his car comes to mind.

 

[namedpipes]

A case a now deceased parole officer told me of a constable who brought a suspect to the police station in the trunk of his car comes to mind.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm surprised that his union is supplying free legal representation.

That was a speculative comment. I doubt there is a union involved.

If constables are eligible for membership in the MPA, they may get certain legal benefits, but are still not "union members".

 

[Len-2A Training]

LEO in MA does not need an LTC to carry.
Try again.

Absolutely correct. BUT most COPs deny that Constables are LEOs and Glidden is right on top of that "denial" pyramid.

I would just assume the police would know constables from theirs, as well as surrounding cities and towns, no? Are constables LEO'S when on the job?

No, per MGL they are LEOs all the time.

No, police don't know who is and isn't a Constable NOR do they know what we do or CAN DO (at least per MGL)!

Is it standard procedure for process servers to chit-chat in public about cases they handle? If you have a worry about the legality of what happened, put the victim in touch with Comm2A and they'll point him toward appropriate representation. You aren't helping anyone by doing this...

GPP is correct (with the on duty caveat). You are wrong. You're reciting a local policy, not MA law.

We serve paper issued by the courts. ALL but a few records are PUBLIC INFORMATION available to anyone for any reason. You merely have to show your face at the Clerk's office and have fun reading thru all sorts of boring court documents.

MANY COPs tell Constables that they don't need a gun or a LTC to do their jobs. Think about handing someone a court document that says that the state is taking away ALL parental rights to their children, serve a divorce, evict (throw them out of their home and move all their possessions to storage) . . . with nothing to defend themselves against someone who gets violent???? Do you want to do that unarmed? Oh yes, nobody knows who you (Constable) are or where you are at any time . . . you are totally on your own.

Do constables have "client/constable privelege?"

Should we on NES be privy to any of this ostensibly private information?

Should the OP even be discussing this on an open forum?

See above. Very rare that any of it is confidential info.

Constables are independent contractors, and therefore, are not generally members of a union. If they qualify for MPA (Mass Police Assn) membership, that might get them some representation - although that is iffy since an LTC suspension is not an employment issue.

It is important to contact Comm2a. The law now says that the standard for denial/suspension/revocation is evidence of a danger to public safety (although it is still a "preponderance of the evidence" rather than "reasonable doubt" standard" - i.e., low). If a case is poorly framed, we could get a precedent that states that the standard remains "any reason" rather than "danger to public safety". (Note how the SJC said that although you have a 2A right, that 2A right does not give you a right to the LTC needed to exercise said right).

If Comm2A is interested, there is a decent chance this person could end up with first rate representation at no cost.

As to suspicious characters - happened to a friend parked in front of my house waiting to get home. The first words the cop who responded said were "Erich - we got a call about a suspicious character at this address - see any?".

I couldn't get us accepted into MPA (merely for their legal insurance) when we were Reserve POs for a town, 35 strong!! No way in hell they would allow Constables to join.

Constables are police officers of the civil courts but most police officers are totally clueless as to who they are and what they do. Lots of times though constables can bring some stuff on themselves. I had a run in with one who was holding up and actually blocking traffic one Saturday morning in downtown Leominster, tried to insinuate that he was a cop. I told him that I understood what a constable was (thank you Len 2A) I actually had to pull out my civilian MSP ID and explain that I worked in the CJ system, that I knew what a constable was, (at this point he was muttering about how we could "go down to the station and sort all of this out") and he better damn quick move on because there would be a cruiser from Leominster Barracks arriving shortly, no city PD, he skedaddled faster than jackrabbit struck by lighting. (actually all the cruisers were probably out on 190, Rte 2 or having breakfast somewhere) Guy must have been 75 years old.

Now I know that statutorily and historically constables may indeed have full police powers, but nobody has probably put that to the test in decades, and today that might be moot.

You're welcome Mark.

Per MGL, we also have criminal LE authority but you have to be a fool to use it as nobody will pay you to do so. MGL C. 90 S. 1 says that Constables can indeed do traffic stops, give tickets, etc. You'll get in a world of shit if you try it, but it is still on the law books. Best to serve paper, make capias arrests (if you want) and do evictions.

To get appointed as a Constable you merely "have to know someone" in town gov't who makes the appointments (selectmen, town manager, city council, etc.). There are NO qualifications nor is there any accepted training even available. So yes, you get mostly retired people picking up pin-money (or ammo money if gun folks). The lack of legal knowledge of how to conduct this business or piss-poor personal behavior is appalling in many cases and many Constables behave like a horse's ass, bringing down a lot of disrespect from the rest of the LE community.

I started in this business 16 years ago and thought I could make real money (not possible except in major slum cities). Came to a quick realization that it is a lot more dangerous than police work and the fees we can charge are chump change for the risk we take plus cost of doing business (driving cost a lot more than gas at $x/mile). There are also jurisdictional issues on what we can do (for other than probate court matters) that restrict us from making real money plus having to pay 25% tithe to the city/town that appoints us for every paper served in said city/town (thank you Gov. Romney - 2004) has drastically changed the landscape in my eyes.

---------------

To the matter at hand:

- Any Constable (or anyone else for that matter) who goes off to work without their DL/Reg/LTC/Badge (for Constables) is a damn fool of questionable intelligence!
- The person being served has every right to challenge a Constable to see an ID or at least a badge to prove what they are. You just don't go out and do this work with nothing for proof other than your "good word"!! The guy is an idiot!! I hang my badge around my neck when serving individuals or in a big company, I may hold it in my hand in a place like a doctor's office to keep the situation discreet from the patients as a for instance.
- IIRC if caught with guns and no LTC in possession, the law allows LE to confiscate and you need to bring your LTC to the PD to get them back.
- Suspension/revocation of LTC for not having it in possession as "unsuitable" is a stretch but I'd bet that most MA marsupial judges will back the COP. Likely this guy is screwed!
- He brought a lot of this on himself so I only have a small amount of sympathy for him. [I might even know him as I've been a member of both state orgs over the years.]

 

[GPP]

This.

I'm surprised that his union is supplying free legal representation.

That only usually applies if it involves something directly related to ones union job and/or while performing ones
duties, or if the employer violated some part of the contract.

Theres no way this guys union is providing him free representation. DPW worker full time, constable part time? Gets jammed up in a neighboring town working his part time job? Nope.

 

[Len-2A Training]

That was a speculative comment. I doubt there is a union involved.

If constables are eligible for membership in the MPA, they may get certain legal benefits, but are still not "union members".

Rob, from the discussions I had with an officer of the MPA years ago and the FT POs in my department at that time, they use MPA as their "union" for bargaining purposes. That was the excuse for excluding the Reserve PO group since we could not be members of the union and weren't allowed to bargain (even for the pay rate when we were asked to work a detail or shift).

So for a Constable group to join MPA, they would have to be considered part of the union . . . never going to happen.

 

[namedpipes]

... No, per MGL they are LEOs all the time. ...

Ok. I understood the no LTC to be while on the job, but stand corrected.

... ALL but a few records are PUBLIC INFORMATION available to anyone for any reason. ...

Also, ok, however ...

... I hang my badge around my neck when serving individuals or in a big company, I may hold it in my hand in a place like a doctor's office to keep the situation discreet from the patients as a for instance. ...

Suggests that professionalism leans toward (if not confidentiality) at least discretion.