Sale to a dealer and the MA gun portal

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I'm about to sell a long gun to a friend and was just pre-empively looking at the gun portal to see how to do it legally. In doing so, I noticed that it says if you sell to a dealer you should also use it. If I hypothetically had transferred firearms to an FFL dealer in MA, why should I have to log anything? The dealer takes possession and does this, don't they? Also, anyone in MA who buys it from them will also have to log within 7 days of the transaction.

Also, after I sell this long gun and log the transaction, does my friend have to then go in and log it again? It's ridiculously not clear.
 
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The dealer's only requirement is to log incoming guns into the bound book as an acquisition. The only time they deal with MIRCS is for an in state sale or transfer. When you sell to a dealer you should do a MIRCS after. (not likely that the gun will come off of your "list" though).
 

DarthRevan

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The dealer's only requirement is to log incoming guns into the bound book as an acquisition. The only time they deal with MIRCS is for an in state sale or transfer. When you sell to a dealer you should do a MIRCS after. (not likely that the gun will come off of your "list" though).
If the FFL is in MA they do it for you, seeing as they have to put it into MIRCS as they transfer it to a MA resident

If you're transfering to a MA resident at an out of state FFL, the person recieving the long gun needs to process the eFA-10
 

Len-2A Training

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The dealer's only requirement is to log incoming guns into the bound book as an acquisition. The only time they deal with MIRCS is for an in state sale or transfer. When you sell to a dealer you should do a MIRCS after. (not likely that the gun will come off of your "list" though).
Per Michaela, NOTHING ever comes off your list and they want it that way.

Selling FTF, you both do the MIRCS eFA-10 form and done.

Selling to a Dealer (in any state), all they do is put it in their Federal Bound Book, no state paperwork. They SHOULD give you a receipt which I advise to staple to a copy of your original FA-10 form from when you bought it. FRB WANTS you to do an eFA-10 as well, but there is nothing in MGL to require you to do so. At one time they allegedly told MA Dealers to do on on acquisitions but I only have been told of 1 or 2 dealers that ever did it.
 
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I have not bothered to look but will EFA10 portal actually go through if you used a FFL# trying to log a sale to a FFL?
 

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I have not bothered to look but will EFA10 portal actually go through if you used a FFL# trying to log a sale to a FFL?
From one of my students' experience, ONLY if you know the Dealer's Mass Dealer # (similar to our LTC #), otherwise it wouldn't let him proceed on the form. So no-can-do if you sell it to a non-MA Dealer (which is perfectly legal).
 
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The paper trail shows up for the gun when they FA10 it out to the buyer. Theres no requirement for state paperwork when the guns come into the shop's inventory. If there were, then dealers wouldn't be able to take in guns from unlicensed individuals. The cops wouldn't instruct unlicensed individuals to sell their inherited and unwanted guns to ffls...
 

Dennis in MA

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The dealer should do the MIRCS portal work for you. You shouldnt have to deal with it. Neither you or your friend will need to do anything further.


[rofl][rofl]

I'm ASSUMING they do, but I'm betting a there are a few guns on my "registry" that I haven't owned in years. Especially during the paper-trail era.
 
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This is really, really simple.

If a gun goes onto my books from a Massachusetts individual, I put their license info and my dealer number into the regular EFA-10 portal and transfer it.

When the gun leaves my books, and goes into possession of a Massachusetts individual, I log into the MIRCS portal and transfer it.

Most people (sellers, transferors, consigners) stare blankly as they receive their receipts but understand completely when I explain it this way. "But you don't need a firearms license to sell a gun to an FFL!" OK, but you do have a firearms license, yes? And the EFA-10 portal has specific accommodations for sales from individuals to dealers, yes? And there is a duty to report sales, with the onus on the seller, yes? Many dealers don't but why wouldn't you? It takes all of 2 minutes. Here's some paperwork that says you got rid of it lawfully, rather than relying on a broken record keeping system. Thanks, have a nice day!
 
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But even if nobody logged the transfer from an individual to a dealer, the dealer and any purchaser would have to log any future transfer. If the purchaser wasn't legal, that person still wouldn't be able to link you to the gun and implicate you in any shady business later on. They would only know that they got the gun from the dealer who would have a record of the first transaction anyway. Right? How can you get into trouble for something you don't possess and transferred to a licensed dealer legally?

When I sell my long gun to my friend it seems quite simple in that I'll just sell it to him and then log it in the portal. I just saw on the portal instructions that as a buyer, you only have to log the gun in if it was obtained out of State, so once I do it as the seller we're good.
 

Dennis in MA

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Years ago I sold a gun at Costa's in Taunton/Raynham. This has to be 01 or 02. Hand him the gun. Mr. Costa (a shining example of good customer service - lol) hands me the cash.

"Ummmm, no paperwork???"

"Nope. Goes in my book. That's it."

"State paperwork???"

"Nope. That's it. That's the way it's done."

I ASSUMED when he sold it again the next week, the NEW FA10 would supersede my FA10 buying it and it would wash. Or that gun could still be on my list. It was almost 20 years ago and I can't really care what MA thinks or doesn't think I have for guns. If they want to give me a list of what they THINK I have, I can verify it for them. LOL
 

92G

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The dealer should do the MIRCS portal work for you. You shouldnt have to deal with it. Neither you or your friend will need to do anything further.

when it comes to transfers, i only know of 2 FFL's that actually FA10 the firearm to themselves. for this reason with most FFL transfers, I perform my own FA10 of the firearm from me to that dealer. it is simple and only requires the FFL's state # which is listed on every FA10 they issue. unlike a FTF sale where I would consider the FA10 to be quite important, I doubt there is much legal requirement to FA10 one's firearm when it goes to an FFL but it has become my practice and I see zero issue with it. It was also suggested to me by a well respected firearms attorney in this state.

Years ago I sold a gun at Costa's in Taunton/Raynham. This has to be 01 or 02. Hand him the gun. Mr. Costa (a shining example of good customer service - lol) hands me the cash.

"Ummmm, no paperwork???"

"Nope. Goes in my book. That's it."

I refuse to dispo a firearm without documentation from the accepting FFL that indicates the date, make/model and SN of firearm. i'm not looking to explain my story but I have been in situation that required proof of lawful disposition and some proper documentation will readily get one off the hook.
 

CrackPot

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ch 140 sec 129c
"A seller shall, within seven days, report all such transfers to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services according to the provisions set forth in section one hundred and twenty-eight A"

Essentially the SELLER is always responsible for reporting all transfer activity involving a licensed individual in MA (my licensed in this case FID/LTC). The dealer reports on MIRCS when a dealer sells to an individual. The seller reports on MIRCS when they sell face to face.

The sale by an individual to a dealer is the responsibility of the seller to report. You enter the dealer D200xxxx number that is on the dealer's MA license to sell firearms into MIRCS and do so through the Personal Sale or Transfer link on the gun transaction portal.

Yes, it never comes off your list. They always know you had it.

Yes, people almost NEVER do this and I'll bet no one has ever been prosecuted for it.

BUT, that is what the law says you must do. I always tell my customers from whom I get firearms, shotguns or rifles to perform the transaction and supply my dealer number. That is their "proof" that they no longer have the gun, just like saving the FA10 from a face to face.

I don't know what my customers do, but I inform them of what I understand the law to require so they can make an informed decision.
 
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ch 140 sec 129c
"A seller shall, within seven days, report all such transfers to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services according to the provisions set forth in section one hundred and twenty-eight A"

Essentially the SELLER is always responsible for reporting all transfer activity involving a licensed individual in MA (my licensed in this case FID/LTC). The dealer reports on MIRCS when a dealer sells to an individual. The seller reports on MIRCS when they sell face to face.

The sale by an individual to a dealer is the responsibility of the seller to report. You enter the dealer D200xxxx number that is on the dealer's MA license to sell firearms into MIRCS and do so through the Personal Sale or Transfer link on the gun transaction portal.

Yes, it never comes off your list. They always know you had it.

Yes, people almost NEVER do this and I'll bet no one has ever been prosecuted for it.

BUT, that is what the law says you must do. I always tell my customers from whom I get firearms, shotguns or rifles to perform the transaction and supply my dealer number. That is their "proof" that they no longer have the gun, just like saving the FA10 from a face to face.

I don't know what my customers do, but I inform them of what I understand the law to require so they can make an informed decision.

That's not proof that you don't own the gun. That's just a piece of paper and anyone could just fake log a gun into the portal and say they sold it to a dealer and the dealer would never know they did it. You can't "prove" you no longer have the gun because you can't prove something that doesn't exist. Why should the seller be responsible for saying they don't have a gun? The buyer should be stating that they do have the gun, and that's how it is for out of State acquisitions.
 

AHM

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You can't "prove" you no longer have the gun because you can't prove something that doesn't exist.

28-Feb'17 Chump Line Submission:

Today only, 33% off Honest Howie's Four-Sided Triangles!
You can't prove they don't exist,
and they're not like the others.​

Grace was having none of it.

I blame her 10th grade math teacher.
 

CrackPot

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That's not proof that you don't own the gun. That's just a piece of paper and anyone could just fake log a gun into the portal and say they sold it to a dealer and the dealer would never know they did it. You can't "prove" you no longer have the gun because you can't prove something that doesn't exist. Why should the seller be responsible for saying they don't have a gun? The buyer should be stating that they do have the gun, and that's how it is for out of State acquisitions.
Wait, you mean a gun law passed by our fine legislature makes no practical sense? Tell me it isn’t so...

I quoted MGL so you know what the morons require. What you do about it and whether it makes sense?
 

Len-2A Training

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So how many people do you think are in this situation, and does it qualify as a disqualifier for renewals?
I've never heard that anyone cares about that from LE in any capacity.

A receipt by the shop proves a lot more than someone making up an FA-10 saying the dealer now owns it. Sevenrats nailed it as to what that problem could be and why LE will never believe a FA-10 that you file without further proof from the dealer.
 

drgrant

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So how many people do you think are in this situation, and does it qualify as a disqualifier for renewals?

Not sure if serious.

Nobody does this. Except for a handful of people around here who are afraid of their own shadow apparently. I've never heard of it until recently.

Most of S128A/B/C is trash anyways.

-Mike
 

CrackPot

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Not sure if serious.

Nobody does this. Except for a handful of people around here who are afraid of their own shadow apparently. I've never heard of it until recently.

Most of S128A/B/C is trash anyways.

-Mike
Interestingly the current dealer MIRCS training Zoran tells dealers about this requirement.
 

drgrant

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Interestingly the current dealer MIRCS training Zoran tells dealers about this requirement.

Yes, but not too many years ago afaik it was not a common practice. Len might know more about the history on this.

-Mike
 

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Interestingly the current dealer MIRCS training Zoran tells dealers about this requirement.
FRB and EOPS make many statements to dealers telling them what they MUST do. However, in many cases there is nothing in MGLs or CMRs to back that up (take the stun gun issue as an example). Most recently a court pointed out their lack of authority in "interpreting law" in the case of the FLRB/NICS check issue on restoration of rights.

Since many dealers won't share FFLs with customers to get guns shipped in to them, I could foresee some refusing to give you their MA Dealer #. I'm also sure that their dealer # changes with each renewal just like our LTC does. In that case your old FA-10 when you bought something from that dealer may have an expired Dealer # and prevent you from filing your FA-10.
 

67ray

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ch 140 sec 129c
"A seller shall, within seven days, report all such transfers to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services according to the provisions set forth in section one hundred and twenty-eight A"

Essentially the SELLER is always responsible for reporting all transfer activity involving a licensed individual in MA (my licensed in this case FID/LTC). The dealer reports on MIRCS when a dealer sells to an individual. The seller reports on MIRCS when they sell face to face.

The sale by an individual to a dealer is the responsibility of the seller to report. You enter the dealer D200xxxx number that is on the dealer's MA license to sell firearms into MIRCS and do so through the Personal Sale or Transfer link on the gun transaction portal.

What abut the case when the individual sells to a dealer doesn't have an LTC? The portal won't allow such a case yes
 
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