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saiga 12 on an FID
- Thread starter Lunokhod
- Start date
no, since we can't have anything with a magazine. I know some places sell 10/22 to some FID holders, but i don't know anything more about it. Those places might, but its not technically legal. We basically can't own anything cool with an FID.
Cant have something with a magazine? Or cant have something with a 10 round or more magazine? The saigas only 5 rounds isnt it?
Good question. On the one hand, they are originally manufactured to accept "large capacity" (7 & 8 round) factory magazines. On the other hand, they are only imported with "non-large capacity" (5 round) magazines. Ultimately, your FFL will be the final arbiter.
Incorrect. FID holders can lawfully purchase and possess magazine fed rifles and shotguns, providing they are "non-large capacity".
Also incorrect. A Ruger 10/22 is a "non-large capacity" rifle, and therefore FID compliant.
For FID holders, it's 10 rounds or less for rifles, but 5 rounds or less for shotguns.
Remsport Mfg
NES Member
The Salga 12 is considered a large cap shotgun because there are feeding devices available for it that hold greater than 5 rounds. The AR version model MK1919 12 gage doesn’t have any feeding devices available for it greater than 5 rounds yet, so by definition it should be OK.
The MK1919 is a better deal than the Saiga it comes with two 5 round magazines and three screw in chokes and is a little less money.
If you would like to look at one and compare it to the Saiga I have both in stock. But at this time it would seem you could purchase the MK1919 and not the Saga with an FID. The same as you could purchase a Barrette 50 with an FID because what is currently available in feeding devices at this time. The Saiga has larger than 5 round feeding devices available and the MK1919 currently doesn’t
The MK1919 is a better deal than the Saiga it comes with two 5 round magazines and three screw in chokes and is a little less money.
If you would like to look at one and compare it to the Saiga I have both in stock. But at this time it would seem you could purchase the MK1919 and not the Saga with an FID. The same as you could purchase a Barrette 50 with an FID because what is currently available in feeding devices at this time. The Saiga has larger than 5 round feeding devices available and the MK1919 currently doesn’t
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Again, it does NOT matter what mags "are available for it" . . . it only matters (wrt MGL and the CMR) what mags were SHIPPED with the gun by the mfr at any time to the civilian market.
There are 22 rd stick mags and 50 rd beta mags for the 1911 . . . I've seen both at NH gun shows. The fact that these mags exist/are available does NOT make the 1911 a large-capacity (LTC-A only) gun!
Some dealers take a more conservative stance (hence some won't sell 10/22s to FID-holders even though perfectly legal) and that is their right as a business owner. I just wish they wouldn't pronounce it as "law" when it is merely company policy!! It's stuff like this that motivated me to create my MA gun law seminar . . . to provide proper info to the public, dealers and instructors.
There are 22 rd stick mags and 50 rd beta mags for the 1911 . . . I've seen both at NH gun shows. The fact that these mags exist/are available does NOT make the 1911 a large-capacity (LTC-A only) gun!
Some dealers take a more conservative stance (hence some won't sell 10/22s to FID-holders even though perfectly legal) and that is their right as a business owner. I just wish they wouldn't pronounce it as "law" when it is merely company policy!! It's stuff like this that motivated me to create my MA gun law seminar . . . to provide proper info to the public, dealers and instructors.
i would like to take a look at the 1919 but unfortunately you are a little out of the way for me,about two hours according to google maps, are you guys going to be open the day before thanksgiving?
also who makes the mk1919 and what is the going price on it?
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Len,
It's a shotgun with a pistol grip and a detachable mag. That's TWO features. Don't forget, with SHOTGUNS, the magazine is a feature, not a prerequisite.
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You miss the point completely.
EVERY gun with a detachable mag "CAN" be large capacity if one buys/builds a big enough mag.
As I've stated before many times (last time was within the past day), that does not make a 1911 "large capacity".
I am not familiar enough with the Saiga 12 to tell anyone if it was ever shipped with a >5 rd mag to the civilian market.
EOPS has also put out a "mixed message" that they were NOT going to add to their list . . . then they added the S&W 15-22 to their large capacity list . . . but they didn't add any S&W M&P pistols to said list! Inconsistency in behavior is the "watchword" here.
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The short of it is:
- If the Saiga has post-9/13/1994 mags with >5 rd capability, possession is a felony.
- If Saiga 12s were ONLY shipped to civilians with a 5 rd mag, ownership with an FID would be legal (assuming it wasn't in illegal "AW" configuration).
EVERY gun with a detachable mag "CAN" be large capacity if one buys/builds a big enough mag.
As I've stated before many times (last time was within the past day), that does not make a 1911 "large capacity".
I am not familiar enough with the Saiga 12 to tell anyone if it was ever shipped with a >5 rd mag to the civilian market.
EOPS has also put out a "mixed message" that they were NOT going to add to their list . . . then they added the S&W 15-22 to their large capacity list . . . but they didn't add any S&W M&P pistols to said list! Inconsistency in behavior is the "watchword" here.
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The short of it is:
- If the Saiga has post-9/13/1994 mags with >5 rd capability, possession is a felony.
- If Saiga 12s were ONLY shipped to civilians with a 5 rd mag, ownership with an FID would be legal (assuming it wasn't in illegal "AW" configuration).
You guys are getting your wires crossed.
Kevlar is thinking the shotgun is AWB illegal, that's what he was trying to get at, vs the EOPS large capacity business.
Ignoring the AWB crap for a moment, I think both are FID legal as shipped. That's just my opinion, but it's probably not worth much here, as my other opinion is most FFLs in MA will c-block the sale of either to an FID holder out of fear or paranoia.
-Mike
Kevlar is thinking the shotgun is AWB illegal, that's what he was trying to get at, vs the EOPS large capacity business.
Ignoring the AWB crap for a moment, I think both are FID legal as shipped. That's just my opinion, but it's probably not worth much here, as my other opinion is most FFLs in MA will c-block the sale of either to an FID holder out of fear or paranoia.
-Mike
Kevlar was pointing out to John that the MK1919, lo-cap or not, is NOT "OK" to own, since it's a PBAW.
Really? So a shotgun with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip manufactured after 9/13/94 is NOT a post-ban assault weapon?
Yes, thank you.
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Ch. 140 S. 121
And from the NOTES section of Glidden's 17th Edition:
From 501 CMR 7.00
So, the CMR is saying that if you do NOT have a large-capacity feeding device (and it was never shipped to civilian market with one), it is NOT a large capacity gun.
From the definition of an AW (Shotgun):
IANAL, but the "AND" seems to imply to me that for the Saiga shotgun to be an AW, it must both have a detachable magazine and at least two of the other mentioned items.
And from the NOTES section of Glidden's 17th Edition:
From 501 CMR 7.00
So, the CMR is saying that if you do NOT have a large-capacity feeding device (and it was never shipped to civilian market with one), it is NOT a large capacity gun.
From the definition of an AW (Shotgun):
IANAL, but the "AND" seems to imply to me that for the Saiga shotgun to be an AW, it must both have a detachable magazine and at least two of the other mentioned items.
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IANAL either but the way you explain it makes it sound like there are a lot of MA saiga 12 owners that have draganov style stocks that didn't have to go that route, please clarify.
Mea Culpa. This is the part I was missing...
...which negates 18 USC 921(a)(30)(D)(iv) (i.e. detachable magazine as an "evil" feature), for magazines with a capacity of 5 rounds or less.
Thank you for the correction.
IANAL either, but I would disagree.
The existence of a fixed magazine AND the ability to accept a detachable magazine would seem to be mutually exclusive.
...which negates 18 USC 921(a)(30)(D)(iv) (i.e. detachable magazine as an "evil" feature), for magazines with a capacity of 5 rounds or less.
Thank you for the correction.
IANAL either, but I would disagree.
The existence of a fixed magazine AND the ability to accept a detachable magazine would seem to be mutually exclusive.
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I know that logic and grammar are foreign to legistraitors, but . . .
Why the "AND" vs. "OR" if they meant it differently than what I stated?
so from what I'm gathering from this topic is that if I was to get pulled over by a cop with either a mk1919 or saiga 12 in my car the cop would probably say it was an assault weapon and even if it wasn't i would have to go through alot of legal problems. Maybe I'll just hold off a couple years until I have an LTC.
If you really want to freak them out, get a pre ban Mini14 and put all the folding stock, bayo, flash hider, and grenade launcher then watch the comments when the 15yo shows up at the range with it.
oh boy, this thread is... interesting haha
yeah that would be pretty funny, well except the whole explaining your way out of the false arrest.![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Me personally I'd just get a benelli m4 and call it a day![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
yeah that would be pretty funny, well except the whole explaining your way out of the false arrest.
Me personally I'd just get a benelli m4 and call it a day
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Not really (on the false arrest). A genuine pre-ban AW requires a LTC according to MGLs. I either posted it above or it was on one of the same pages in Glidden's book.
Might be in Glidden's book, but I would like the site in law that would make it illegal.
There's the truth of the day!
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It's in the definition of AW in C. 140 S. 121
So any AW = Large Capacity Weapon.
And in Ron's explanation of the definitions:
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I have to disagree here. Why would the 10/22 not fit this description? Because it's not on the list and didn't ship in that configuration. Neither is the Mini-14?
ETA: OK your looking at (iv) ?
If your looking thee you must look at this:
“Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); (iv) Colt AR-15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
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